Originally posted by robrecht
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And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSounds like your Venomous selective tactics without taking into consideration the whole of the Baha'i writings in context. Your terminology of 'Anti-Jewish rhetoric' is a clear example.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYou assume that I have not also been critical of the very same things within Christianity, but that is not true, and at considerable personal cost.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostNothing venomous in trying to help you understand what an ad hominem argument is. Do you now agree that an ad hominem argument can employ either true or false claims about the other person?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, you have been selectively critical of the Baha'i Faith without any effort to understand objectively the greater context of the Baha'i scripture.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWell, ok, with you the ad hominem is true and stands.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWhich is why we have theologians who can reflect on such issues, eg, leading the Pope to express gratitude for the Jews maintaining their Jewish faith or the Catholic bishops in Britain calling for an end to prayer or the conversion of the Jews. Some might need authority figures to make it OK for them to engage in common sense evaluation of their scriptures and to engage in thoughtful and open dialogue with people of other faiths but others can come to the same conclusions on their own. Shuny does not hesitate to criticize the faith of others so I merely challenge him to engage in his own self-critical theological reflection regarding his beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in his holy scriptures.
The Vatican II is a clear example of the limitations of reform when Doctrine Dogma trump change and reform.
The positive point of Vatican II was to encourage greater dialogue outside the church to secular governments, and to other churches through what is called ecumenism, but attempts at greater dialogue the illusion of ecumenism is conditioned by a Catch 22 in the Decree of Ecumenism “our separated brethren…are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.” It is only through “Christ’s Catholic Church” that “they can benefit fully from the means of salvation”, for “Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God”
Thus the Catch 22 'Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus' trumps reform.
Be careful of Greeks bearing gifts.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Baha'i Faith does not need 'authority figures' to engage in common sense evaluation of their scriptures and to engage in thoughtful and open dialogue with people of other faiths but others can come to the same conclusions on their own. . . because there are no priests, clergy nor bishops in the Baha'i Faith to give them permission to do this, because like the equality of men and women it is grounded in the fundamental principles of the Baha'i Faith. Notice recent statements by the pope only referred to Judaism and not the other religions in this consideration.
The Vatican II is a clear example of the limitations of reform when Doctrine Dogma trump change and reform.
The positive point of Vatican II was to encourage greater dialogue outside the church to secular governments, and to other churches through what is called ecumenism, but attempts at greater dialogue the illusion of ecumenism is conditioned by a Catch 22 in the Decree of Ecumenism “our separated brethren…are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.” It is only through “Christ’s Catholic Church” that “they can benefit fully from the means of salvation”, for “Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God”
Thus the Catch 22 'Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus' trumps reform.
Be careful of Greeks bearing gifts.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWell at least you admit that you have employed ad hominem arguments. That is a start. But these ad hominem statements about me are not true. I am not dishonest and you have not even attempted to support this allegation. I am not hypocritical, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, but have strongly criticized Christian antisemitism in no uncertain terms. I am not anchored in an ancient worldview. I am very respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures, 'though I have expressed two criticism in a respectful manner. I have never been venomous toward you or the Baha'i faith.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAcknowledging the adhominem as true does not get you off the hook. You selective aggressive monologue is not a respectful manner when you fail to make the effort to understand the context of the whole in the Baha'i writings in pounding aggressively on individual citations.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut where are the Baha'i theologians who can critique or interpret critically scriptures or those who exercise authority in the Baha'i faith? Or why can't you yourself do this?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut your ad hominem statements about me are not true.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour language and aggressive manner do not represent a reasoned objective critique or critical interpretation of the scripture. I addressed this before. I have been to seminars, and done this in a constructive manner considering multiple sources in scripture, and read results of Baha'i scholars who do this. Your language, manner and overtly pounding away at one citation does not remotely represent an 'objective critique' on this subject nor the others we have discussed.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlease review your language and aggressive manner. It is indeed true.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI am not aggressive, but I have been persistent in the face of your avoidance of the issue. If you feel the rhetoric in question is not anti-Jewish, why won't you ask Jews what they think of this rhetoric? If the language is not offensive, why won't you use the same language for members of the Baha'i faith?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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