Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

"No Fly" list becomes "No Gun" list?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "No Fly" list becomes "No Gun" list?

    So, Obama's big speech from the White House (only his 3rd in his presidency) included this....

    “To begin with, Congress should act to make sure no one on a No-Fly List is able to buy a gun. What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to but a semi-automatic weapon? This is a matter of national security.”


    Well, even the left leaning folks at Vox see the problem....

    Source: Vox

    It's the second criterion, however — a threat to commit a terrorist act within the homeland — that might be most useful for the government in restricting gun purchases. It's not clear how much the government has been focusing on adding domestic terrorists to the no-fly list — after all, if they aren't planning to attack planes, it's much easier not to. But if that were what it took to prevent domestic terrorists from owning guns, the government would have a powerful incentive to devote intelligence resources to finding domestic terrorists to list.

    But it might not have to look that hard to find suitable candidates. While the criteria for what sorts of "threats" get placed on the no-fly list is specific, the evidence that can be used to put someone on the no-fly list — or any government watch list — is pretty thin. The government is trying to predict whether people who have never committed any acts of terrorism before will commit one now, and that involves a lot of what the government calls "predictive judgments" and its critics call guesswork.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So, skeptics see this as the nose of the camel coming under the edge of the tent, so to speak.

    IF the "no fly" list becomes a "no gun" list, then it would be easy to add people to the "no fly" list to prevent them from purchasing weapons.

    Maybe Obama should say "if you were able to board a plane before, you can keep your boarding pass - period!"

    More from Vox, same site....

    Source: Cont'd

    There's also a way for the government to add whole categories of people (like anyone who "traveled to a particular country in a particular year) to the no-fly list temporarily — if it has specific reasons for doing so. The "upgrade" (as it's called) can last for 72 hours without official review, and can get extended indefinitely every 30 days if "senior officials" agree it's necessary.

    The temporary "upgrade" could be an implementation nightmare in and of itself for making the no-fly list a no-gun list. Would people who'd temporarily been put on the no-fly list be told they couldn't buy a gun, period? Would they be told to come back after the upgrade had been lifted? Would the government put in place a way for an individual person to exempt himself from the group terror "upgrade?"

    If the no-fly list stays focused on preventing threats to aircraft, that might not matter — there simply aren't enough people on the list who might want to buy guns anyway. But if the list changes in response to becoming a no-gun list, it matters a great deal.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by Cow Poke; 12-08-2015, 03:27 AM.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    One of the problems with the no-fly list and using it for other purposes is that there is no procedure set in place to have your name removed from it. Those who have been placed upon it by mistake have discovered that it can take several years of constant fighting to finally be removed.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      One of the problems with the no-fly list and using it for other purposes is that there is no procedure set in place to have your name removed from it. Those who have been placed upon it by mistake have discovered that it can take several years of constant fighting to finally be removed.
      My Muslim friend's name is Anwer Ahmad. In Pakistan, that's the equivalent of "John Smith". He works for the government, but when he tried to fly back to Pakistan to get his fiancιe for their wedding, he found out that an "Anwer Ahmad" was on the no fly list. Took him 3 extra days to prove that he wasn't the one they were looking for. And that's for someone who already has had an intensive background check.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        One of the problems with the no-fly list and using it for other purposes is that there is no procedure set in place to have your name removed from it. Those who have been placed upon it by mistake have discovered that it can take several years of constant fighting to finally be removed.
        The Late Senator Ted Kennedy complained bitterly about being kept from flying because his name was on the list.

        "I got on the watch list last April,” Kennedy said at the 2005 hearing. I was taking a plane to Boston and I get out to USAir at about a quarter to seven and I get my ticket. And they say, ‘We can’t give it to you.’ And I said, ‘Wait a minute there must be some sort of mix-up.’”

        Kennedy continued to retell his experience at the ticket counter in Washington.

        “And the person behind the gate said ‘I can’t sell it to you. You can’t buy a ticket to go on the airline to Boston.’ I said, ‘Well why not?’ They said, ‘we can’t tell you.’”

        “Well I said, ‘Let me talk to the supervisor on that.’ This is five of seven and the plane is about to leave. And finally, the supervisor said OK.”

        Kennedy first believed the problem stemmed from something that occurred at his office, but later discovered that was not the case. However, the airport irritation was not over.

        When he attempted to board the return flight from Boston to Washington he was told he could not board the plane.

        “I went up to the desk and I said I’ve been getting on this plane for 42 years, why can I get on the plane back…to Washington?”

        “So my administrative assistant talked to the Department of Homeland Security and they said somebody made a mistake. It happened three more times. And finally Secretary [Tom] Ridge called to apologize. It happened even after he called to apologize, because my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines and with the homeland security,” Kennedy said.

        “He couldn’t even get my name off the list for a period of weeks. Now if they have that kind of difficulty for a member of Congress — my office has had a number of instances where we’ve had a leader of a distinguished medical school in New England and the list goes on, how in the world are average Americans who are going to get caught up in this kind of thing — how are they going to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?” Kennedy asked.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          The Late Senator Ted Kennedy complained bitterly about being kept from flying because his name was on the list.

          "I got on the watch list last April,” Kennedy said at the 2005 hearing. I was taking a plane to Boston and I get out to USAir at about a quarter to seven and I get my ticket. And they say, ‘We can’t give it to you.’ And I said, ‘Wait a minute there must be some sort of mix-up.’”

          Kennedy continued to retell his experience at the ticket counter in Washington.

          “And the person behind the gate said ‘I can’t sell it to you. You can’t buy a ticket to go on the airline to Boston.’ I said, ‘Well why not?’ They said, ‘we can’t tell you.’”

          “Well I said, ‘Let me talk to the supervisor on that.’ This is five of seven and the plane is about to leave. And finally, the supervisor said OK.”

          Kennedy first believed the problem stemmed from something that occurred at his office, but later discovered that was not the case. However, the airport irritation was not over.

          When he attempted to board the return flight from Boston to Washington he was told he could not board the plane.

          “I went up to the desk and I said I’ve been getting on this plane for 42 years, why can I get on the plane back…to Washington?”

          “So my administrative assistant talked to the Department of Homeland Security and they said somebody made a mistake. It happened three more times. And finally Secretary [Tom] Ridge called to apologize. It happened even after he called to apologize, because my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines and with the homeland security,” Kennedy said.

          “He couldn’t even get my name off the list for a period of weeks. Now if they have that kind of difficulty for a member of Congress — my office has had a number of instances where we’ve had a leader of a distinguished medical school in New England and the list goes on, how in the world are average Americans who are going to get caught up in this kind of thing — how are they going to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?” Kennedy asked.
          And that's for someone who is famous and with a lot of political pull. Imagine what happens to those who aren't famous or so well-connected. Back where I worked in 2006-7 the uncle of a co-worker of mine who had retired from the military after nearly 30 years and awarded a Silver Star in Vietnam was put on the list a couple years after 9/11 and it took him over 3 years to finally get it straightened out. Meanwhile he couldn't fly which was important in his job and led to his decision to take an early retirement.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            And that's for someone who is famous and with a lot of political pull. Imagine what happens to those who aren't famous or so well-connected. Back where I worked in 2006-7 the uncle of a co-worker of mine who had retired from the military after nearly 30 years and awarded a Silver Star in Vietnam was put on the list a couple years after 9/11 and it took him over 3 years to finally get it straightened out. Meanwhile he couldn't fly which was important in his job and led to his decision to take an early retirement.
            But you can pay EXTRA for back ground scrutiny that puts you on a supposed "speed check".

            (I wonder what happens if you have that, and STILL show up on the no fly list)
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              What does it say about our country's state when you think "gee I miss politicians like Ted Kennedy"
              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • #8
                There's no way this new policy is going to fly. I just can't see it getting off the ground.
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  There's no way this new policy is going to fly. I just can't see it getting off the ground.
                  I see what you did there.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I see what you did their.
                    FIFY n/c


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      So, Obama's big speech from the White House (only his 3rd in his presidency) included this....

                      “To begin with, Congress should act to make sure no one on a No-Fly List is able to buy a gun. What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to but a semi-automatic weapon? This is a matter of national security.”
                      http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/06/po...s-no-fly-list/
                      Trump indicates support for Obummer's proposal!!! All us true conservatives are shocked!!
                      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I see what you did there.
                        Do you think I made it plane enough?
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          Do you think I made it plane enough?
                          Ummmm.... crash and burn
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wouldn't stop terrorism but it would be a perfect way to keep a person (or persons) you didn't like from buying a gun.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              Wouldn't stop terrorism but it would be a perfect way to keep a person (or persons) you didn't like from buying a gun.
                              And it's not like the IRS has never violated the "treat everybody the same" principle.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                              16 responses
                              157 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post One Bad Pig  
                              Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                              53 responses
                              400 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Mountain Man  
                              Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                              25 responses
                              114 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                              33 responses
                              198 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Roy
                              by Roy
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                              84 responses
                              373 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post JimL
                              by JimL
                               
                              Working...
                              X