Lazarus and the rich man � parable or actual event?

[One Bad Pig]

Gotta figure out how to do that verse tag.

If you "reply with quote" to my post, you should be able to see how it works.

As far as Calvinist, maybe two-point, if even that. I take strong issue with some of the arguments I have heard from the five-pointers.

As far as being able to change one's mind, yes I agree. But it's not that simple. I used to be an adamant atheist, and lost of people tried changing my mind. It was only through the convicting of the Holy Spirit for several months that I finally gave in. I can fully understand the concept that nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. Even then, unlike the Calvinist view of irresistible grace, I believe people can still resist the Holy Spirit.

Then I don't understand how the verse applies at all.

[Abigail]

I don't think the parable is specifically condemning rich people since poor people can be evil too. I think the parable is making the point that outward appearances do not tell the whole story, and those who are rich and look like they are blessed can be very far from God at the same time. Also a person can be poor and look like he has been abandoned by everyone and God, and yet he is the one at peace with God (Job for instance who God himself said was righteous). In the early chapters of John, Jesus chided the people for following him for physical bread and He made the distinction between physical bread and spiritual bread, saying only the one satisfies. The rich man was the physical man and Lazarus was the spiritual man and Paul also tells us that only one can inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). I think perhaps Faber is onto something with the 5 brother-in-law of the high priest, since being such a prominent family people might have made this connection too and it was to the religious leaders like Nicodemus who Jesus said they did not understand the things they were supposed to know (John 3:1-21). They didn't accept what Moses and the prophets said and that is why they didn't accept Jesus.

[The Remonstrant]

As far as [being a] Calvinist, maybe two-point, if even that. I take strong issue with some of the arguments I have heard from the five-pointers.

[The Remonstrant]

Well, it is a parable from what I know of Jewish parables. Jesus rarely made His parables personal by naming anyone in them, but even in this one, the gist is still the same. it's a story used to illustrate a point. But that still does not negate the realities Jesus used to make the point. First off, the wicked do indeed go to a place of torment, and the righteous go to a place of rest.

disembodiedembodied (cf. v. 24).

[Bill the Cat]

disembodiedembodied (cf. v. 24).

I disagree. They are not said to be embodied in the parable

[The Remonstrant]

First off, the wicked do indeed go to a place of torment, and the righteous go to a place of rest.

disembodiedembodied (cf. v. 24).

I disagree. They are not said to be embodied in the parable

So, then, the eyes and tongue of the rich man are immaterial/incorporealimmaterialimmaterial (cf. v. 24)? Disembodied souls require water?

[Bill the Cat]

So, then, the eyes and tongue of the rich man are immaterial/incorporealimmaterialimmaterial (cf. v. 24)? Disembodied souls require water?

Yes. Scriptire is replete with what happens to those who are suffering in sheol, and it is all physical in nature.

[The Remonstrant]

First off, the wicked do indeed go to a place of torment, and the righteous go to a place of rest.

disembodiedembodied (cf. v. 24).

I disagree. They are not said to be embodied in the parable

So, then, the eyes and tongue of the rich man are immaterial/incorporealimmaterialimmaterial (cf. v. 24)? Disembodied souls require water?

Yes. Scriptire [sic] is replete with what happens to those who are suffering in sheol, and it is all physical in nature.

isphysically (i.e. bodily, corporeally) if they are not embodied?

[theophilus]

How can disembodied souls undergo physical suffering? How can persons suffer physically (i.e. bodily, corporeally) if they are not embodied?

We won't know the answers to these questions until we die and experience first hand what being disembodied is like.

[Bill the Cat]

isphysically (i.e. bodily, corporeally) if they are not embodied?

Will have to answer fuller later, but demons are not physical yet they suffer torment do they not?

[The Remonstrant]

isphysically (i.e. bodily, corporeally) if they are not embodied?

Will have to answer fuller later, but demons are not physical yet they suffer torment do they not?

The question is not whetherphysical torment and yet be disembodied. Had you conceded that the rich man and Lazarus are both portrayed as embodied

[The Remonstrant]

We won't know the answers to these questions until we die and experience first hand what being disembodied is like.

[One Bad Pig]

I think most people take the passage as a parable. In any case, I don't think the physical descriptors of torment should be taken any more literally than Abraham's bosom.

[The Remonstrant]

I think most people take the passage as a parable. In any case, I don't think the physical descriptors of torment should be taken any more literally than Abraham's bosom.