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Thread: Is libertarian free will coherent?

  1. #1061
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thinker View Post
    Libertarian free will requires at least 3 things:

    (1) We are in control of our will
    (2) our mind is causally effective
    (3) in the same situation we could have done otherwise

    This view is popular among lay people but not among scientists and philosophers. Why is this? It's because libertarian free will is incoherent.

    One simple question to ask the libertarian is: do our thoughts have causes? Yes or no?

    If our thoughts have causes, what ever caused that can't be our will or our mind, because our thoughts are our will and mind.
    You have forgotten about how I can by what I will now in some ways cause what I will tomorrow.

    Some people have in some cases had wills directed on not wanting that candy, that bottle of alcohol or that wank next time they would according to their experience be likely to so want, if not forestalling it by will.

    All our life stories, in succession, are what we are, in a way, and this means we can today will ourselves out of certain wills tomorrow.

    On the Christian view, not quite so, since we need the grace of God for really good resolutions to be really efficient, but knowing that, a Christian can pray.

    And if we can will ourselves today out of certain wills tomorrow, we can will ourselves into some too.

    Note that the delay need not be exactly 24 hours, it could be shorter.

    "If you look on the woman, you are not free not to desire her, but you are free not to look at her in the first place" - said by a Desert Father, an Egyptian monk about one disciple having visited the city.
    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

  2. #1062
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thinker View Post
    Make a positive argument showing LFW is coherent.
    I think I just did.
    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

  3. #1063
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansgeorg View Post
    I think I just did.
    Thinker can't answer you right now. The universe made him break the rules and now he is temporarily banned for two weeks.

  4. #1064
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thinker View Post
    If you think consciousness has the ability to change the course of your atoms to go one way or the other, and that you could have done otherwise in the same situation, meaning, your consciousness itself is not determined by something, then you would believe in LFW.
    This is why epiphenomenalists don't believe in LFW.

    And why Christians usually do.

    Yes, I believe my consciousness is rather determining than simply just being determined by atoms in my brain.

    And so, of course, I have no problem thinking consciousness in purer, Divine or angelic, form has any problem directing atoms.
    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

  5. #1065
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The universe made him break the rules and now he is temporarily banned for two weeks.
    Ah, I'll have to wait for an answer then.
    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

  6. #1066
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Thinker can't answer you right now. The universe made him break the rules and now he is temporarily banned for two weeks.
    Really? Thinker is banned - what did he do?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  7. #1067
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansgeorg View Post
    Ah, I'll have to wait for an answer then.
    Don't hold your breath. His "answers" are always the same. Must be because he has no free will.

  8. #1068
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, even robots cause themselves to do things. When it is said that nothing can cause itself, what is meant is nothing can cause itself to come to be. But nothing in what I've said is anything causing itself to come to be. Once something (like Alice) exists, then it can cause changes to itself. There is nothing impossible about you giving yourself a tatoo, but it's impossible for the tatoo itself to cause itself to exist.
    The science of Methodological Naturalism does not remotely claim that something or anything in our physical existence can cause itself.
    Okay. That's consistent with what I said.

  9. #1069
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Okay. That's consistent with what I said.
    Natural Law, and inherent nature of our physical existence may the 'uncaused cause' of everything in our physical exitence, just as God may be the 'uncaused cause' of everything that exists.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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