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Erasmian or Modern Pronunciation

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  • Erasmian or Modern Pronunciation

    I've decided to teach myself Greek, but I'm not entirely sure whether or not I should learn the Erasmian, or modern pronunciation. I'm leaning (quite heavily) towards the modern pronunciation, mainly because the Erasmian sounds artificial and "ugly" to my ears in comparison to the modern one, but I was wondering if there are any compelling reasons to choose the Erasmian over the modern pronunciation?

  • #2
    The Erasmian would be best if you have the possibility of discussing the Greek text on a scholarly level. If you have any chance of discussing NT with others who have studied the Greek, then it would be best to have the same basis of pronunciation.

    If not needed for theological discussion, then you might have some benefit learning the modern Greek sounds but mainly if you are interested in learning Modern Greek too. Neither option is thought to sound anything close to the original sound. And, of course, there is no benefit in learning the original sounds if no one else would recognize it.

    I just do some minimal sounding of the words in my own way such that I can just read through a 'sentence' here or there ... or just to help see if the word is familiar. I may (have to) seek to familiarize myself with the Erasmian sounds as time goes on.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      The Erasmian would be best if you have the possibility of discussing the Greek text on a scholarly level. If you have any chance of discussing NT with others who have studied the Greek, then it would be best to have the same basis of pronunciation.
      Except if you're discussing it via text, in which case what pronunciation you're using as no significance at all.

      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      If not needed for theological discussion, then you might have some benefit learning the modern Greek sounds but mainly if you are interested in learning Modern Greek too. Neither option is thought to sound anything close to the original sound. And, of course, there is no benefit in learning the original sounds if no one else would recognize it.
      There are people who've learned Koine Greek using the modern pronunciation, and there's also, if I'm not mistaken, a reconstructed Koine Greek pronunciation, that is similar, but not the same, as the Modern Greek pronunciation. My reasons for learning Greek using the modern or, alternatively, reconstructed pronunciation is mainly aesthetic. It simply sounds more pleasing to the ears. And even if I did learn the modern, or reconstructed pronunciation I'm fairly certain I'd have no problems following along someone using the Erasmian pronunciation. Also, I think linguists have managed to reconstruct the pronunciation of Koine Greek fairly well (Atleast that's my impression from reading articles on the internet, like this one http://biblicalgreek.org/links/biblical.php), and the conclusion seems to be that it sounds fairly similar to the Modern pronunciation.

      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      I just do some minimal sounding of the words in my own way such that I can just read through a 'sentence' here or there ... or just to help see if the word is familiar. I may (have to) seek to familiarize myself with the Erasmian sounds as time goes on.
      If I hadn't come across the modern and reconstructed pronunciations I wouldn't have any problems learning the Erasmian pronunciation. But after listening to readings of the New Testament with modern and reconstructed pronunciation I simply can't bring myself to learn the Erasmian pronunciation. It just sounds "wrong" to my ear compared to either of the two other. Which I admit is kind of silly given that I'm not a native speaker of Greek, and that Koine is a "dead" language that no one speaks, so it shouldn't really matter which pronunciation I'm using as long as I understand what I'm reading.

      ETA: I had way too many smilies in the text so I removed some of them.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        Except if you're discussing it via text, in which case what pronunciation you're using as no significance at all.
        I think you miss the importance of chatting to yourself as you respond in text on tweb.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          I think you miss the importance of chatting to yourself as you respond in text on tweb.
          But if I'm chatting to myself it doesn't really matter which pronunciation I'm using, does it?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            But if I'm chatting to myself it doesn't really matter which pronunciation I'm using, does it?
            This is true.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #7
              Modern pronunciation tends to blur the pronunciation of vowel sounds but chasing after a single ancient pronunciation is futile. It is helpful to choose one system and stick to it, if only for the sake of building reading fluency. Erasmus was an interesting guy so you could do worse.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Modern pronunciation tends to blur the pronunciation of vowel sounds but chasing after a single ancient pronunciation is futile. It is helpful to choose one system and stick to it, if only for the sake of building reading fluency. Erasmus was an interesting guy so you could do worse.
                Yeah, but isn't it the case that the pronunciation that bears his name has changed so much that it doesn't even resemble the pronunciation that he initially constructed? I wouldn't be speaking Greek like Erasmus, I would be speaking Greek like someone who took Erasmus' system and mauled it beyond recognition.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  Yeah, but isn't it the case that the pronunciation that bears his name has changed so much that it doesn't even resemble the pronunciation that he initially constructed? I wouldn't be speaking Greek like Erasmus, I would be speaking Greek like someone who took Erasmus' system and mauled it beyond recognition.
                  As American soldiers used to say in Germany in the mid-1950's when I was one of them: "max nix" for das macht nichts" = never mind, it does not matter.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                    As American soldiers used to say in Germany in the mid-1950's when I was one of them: "max nix" for das macht nichts" = never mind, it does not matter.
                    So if it doesn't matter I might as well just go with either Randall Buth's reconstructed pronunciation, or the modern pronunciation and stick with whichever one of them I choose?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      So if it doesn't matter I might as well just go with either Randall Buth's reconstructed pronunciation, or the modern pronunciation and stick with whichever one of them I choose?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Yeah, but isn't it the case that the pronunciation that bears his name has changed so much that it doesn't even resemble the pronunciation that he initially constructed? I wouldn't be speaking Greek like Erasmus, I would be speaking Greek like someone who took Erasmus' system and mauled it beyond recognition.
                        That would not surprise me, but I have never bothered to study the history and diversity of Erasmian pronunciation. There are a few different options to listen to recordings. In addition to Buth, you might want to look into Christophe Rico's use of reconstructed Attic or the recordings of the Joint Association of Classical Teachers (JACT), which also has some recordings. There are probably others, but I've never looked into these resources. I just use the pronunciation of my first teacher, Leonardos.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          ... I just use the pronunciation of my first teacher, ...
                          Likewise, and it matters not who that may have been.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                            Likewise, and it matters not who that may have been.
                            It matters to me only because I have fond memories of my teachers. I looked up this guy, Leonardos, on the Internet when I was thinking back on the pronunciation I learned, and it brought back all these memories of such a nice man, a priest who taught the classics and began every class with a prayer, in Greek, of course.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                              As American soldiers used to say in Germany in the mid-1950's when I was one of them: "max nix" for das macht nichts" = never mind, it does not matter.
                              I said that very thing just the other day.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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