What is the Jewish view of the resurrection of Jesus?

[mitzi]

Simply put, you'll find the typical Jewish/Judaism response to be that the resurrection did not occur, that essentially the OT scriptures quoted in the NT or used to support the resurrection are taken out of context and/or mistranslated.

True on all counts. However, there is a statement that explains:


"And engrave upon it engraved like a signet ring, 'Holy to G-d.' " (Exodus-Shemot 28:36)


QUESTION: The words "pituchei chotam" — "engraved like a signet ring" — seem to be superfluous. What are they teaching us?

ANSWER: The Gemara (Ta'anit 2a) states that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.

The word "pituchei" can be interpreted to mean "keys" (in Hebrew, "maftei'ach" is a key). The word "chotam" is an acronym for Chayah, techiat hameitim, matar. Thus, the Torah is implying that "pituchei" — the keys [to the treasures of] "chotam" are "kodesh laHashem" — uniquely reserved and sanctified, to be used only by Hashem Himself. LINK
NOTE:

R' Papo concludes: Our verse refers to the tzitz as "pituchei chotam." In context, this means "engraved like a signet ring." It can also mean, however, "opening that which is sealed." One who follows the advice given above will open that which is sealed, i.e., the World-to-Come, which is now invisible to us, will be revealed before him. (Elef Ha'maggen) LINK

But,

According to the 13 principles: "I believe with complete (perfect) faith, that there will be techiat hameitim - revival of the dead, whenever it will be God's , blessed be He, will (desire) to arise and do so. May (God's) Name be blessed, and may His rememberance arise, forever and ever"

Isn't this stance saying that G-d can revive the death at anytime "whenever it will be G-d's (blessed be He, will (desire)?

AgainThe Key of the Revival of the Dead, for it is written, And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves.2 In Palestine they said: Also the Key of Sustenance, for it is said, You open Your hand etc.3 Why does not R. Johanan include also this [key]? Link

So anything is possible....

Mitzi

[easyboy201]

We honestly dont care. Christianity is for Christians to follow not Jews.

You're kidding right? You didn't think before making that statement?
Christianity IS for Jews to follow but (many) Jews rejected it. The O.T is a witness to Christ - yet when Christ came the Jews were split.
Thousands of Jews constituted the first Christians and the rest of the Jews were said to be rejecting God's revelation.

[mitzi]

You're kidding right? You didn't think before making that statement?
Christianity IS for Jews to follow but (many) Jews rejected it. The O.T is a witness to Christ - yet when Christ came the Jews were split.
Thousands of Jews constituted the first Christians and the rest of the Jews were said to be rejecting God's revelation.

Hi Easyboy201:

The question that One Following Him was asking is "What" is the Jewish view of Christ resurrection and I have to apologize if I've steered the last couple of posts off in another area of the idea of this topic. As 1FH stated: This is not a debate thread, but rather a thread to understand the Jewish view of the resurrection of Jesus. It is about looking at the record of the resurrection and what the Jewish view is and why it is viewed the way that it is. Also to note: Non-Jewish are welcome to contribute, but in a spirit of being informative.

There are many areas of the N.T that connect “well” with the Torah about the day of the “resurrection ” (end of days) that could answer the question but perhaps not with the same “idea” with the Christian view, as noted in some of the information shared in previous post. Both Salty & 1FH had a very interesting conversation-Only the question was stated about the resurrection of Christ and how the Jews view the resurrection prior to the end of days? And Is this possible? I would hope to ask & wish that he conversation would continue with Christian & Jewish dialog but perhaps in the Unorthodox Theology board in order to give some room for both sides to post without any interference. If our Jewish members don’t feel they either want to address this topic because of further confrontations or will lead to other conversations down in another direction--then “No harm“ will come to those who want the thread to continue.

But with my two cents on the table: Is it possible for Jesus
Christ to have been risen from the dead? I say “Yes” with no doubts.

I want to correct a post that I had sent to the board and stress “With G-d anything is possible” and also to note a stance/or principle:

1st According to the 13 principles: "I believe with complete (perfect) faith, that there will be techiat hameitim - revival of the dead, whenever it will be God's , blessed be He, will (desire) to arise and do so. May (God's) Name be blessed, and may His remembrance arise, forever and ever"

Isn't this principle saying that G-d can revive the death at anytime "whenever it will be G-d's (blessed be He), will (desire)? So it would be possible for Christ to be resurrected and noting that there have been others like Elijah and to even note Moses.

What I had noticed in one of the verses in Mt 22:29-32 is that scripture states: He is not the God of the dead but of the living and then read Mark 12:26-27 when it states: “have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'?



So according to these passages….Christ (also) lives.






2nd “ QUESTION: The words "pituchei chotam" — "engraved like a signet ring" — seem to be superfluous. What are they teaching us?

ANSWER: The Gemara (Ta'anit 2a) states that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.

The word "pituchei" can be interpreted to mean "keys" (in Hebrew, "maftei'ach" is a key). The word "chotam" is an acronym for Chayah, techiat hameitim, matar. Thus, the Torah is implying that "pituchei" — the keys [to the treasures of] "chotam" are "kodesh laHashem" — uniquely reserved and sanctified, to be used only by Hashem Himself. LINK

Last comment and two passages: Matt 13:52-53

Regarding: "pituchei chotam" (entrusts the Tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures)
And he replied, "Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old."

And the 2nd passage:

Matt 24:45-47 Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

**Again, doesn’t it state: that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.

The parallel to some of the passages are too close.

Mitzi

[papas]

Record? Oh, you mean the NT. The details you seek are in your so-called Old Testament, if you'd just look with an unbiased eye. Read all of it in context without the errant Christian interpretations; read what it says, not what you think it should say, and without the Christian eisegetic errors.

If you want shortcuts, here are some very good links:
Jews For Judaism: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/ma...rooftexts.html
Their Hollow Inheritance: http://www.drazin.com/index.phtml
Messiah Truth: http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/apologetics.htm

Where do we start in cutting down a hollow tree. You'll just have to show to us how Genesis has been misinterpreted by Christians. We can't exactly go verse by verse looking for the ultimate subcontext. Thanks for the links though, will definitely check them out.

Wrong. Read all of Isaiah, not just chapter 53, or 7:14, or 9:5-6. Throughout the whole book Isaiah identifies the suffering servant by name: Israel. It often uses the singular tense to refer to Israel. And while you're pointing out the "he" look at verse 8 where it switches to "them".

Is this from the original language? You can't really judge one word (which isn't in the English version at all) as we don't have any of the originals. Actually, Isaiah stops talking about Israel at 52:12.

Look at verse 9, "He had done no violence," then refer to the violent J in Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51.

These are prophecies Jesus made of His first coming. As if Israel never did anything violent.

Did J see his seed, as is prophecied in Is. 53:10? Nope (unless Dan Brown got it right! ). The Hebrew word translated as "seed" here always refers to physical descendents, not spiritual descendents. For the latter, "sons" is used. Also prophecied in verse 10 is a long life. I think you'll agree that 33 is not a long life.

Umm, since exactly two verses before that, 53:8 Isaiah says the suffering servant has no descendants, this can only mean one of two things: Isaiah is really dumb and couldn't remember what he wrote two verses before, or it's a deeper meaning than physical offspring. The New Testament supports the latter position by Matthew 17:25-26 (How can Jesus be the father of grown men unless it's a metaphor for Him being the second Adam?)

There's more. In fact, pages and pages, books upon books have been written disproving Christianity's errant interpretation of Isaiah 53.

Translation: I think I've killed every possible Christian defense by this brilliant reinterpretation so I'll just finish it off with a "there are a lot of books out there that support me" statement.

And there is no independent and unbiased evidence of a historical J. There is plenty of evidence that Christians have been around, but then that's not being disputed.

I guess since a debate can never survive without one or both persons to hide/personally reinterpret evidence, why don't we just give an unbiased source that overwhelmingly shows the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

[easyboy201]

So all you're asking is about the possibility of the resurrection?

And "Christ is for Christians to follow not Jews" is basically missing the point then.

Hi Easyboy201:

The question that One Following Him was asking is "What" is the Jewish view of Christ resurrection and I have to apologize if I've steered the last couple of posts off in another area of the idea of this topic. As 1FH stated: This is not a debate thread, but rather a thread to understand the Jewish view of the resurrection of Jesus. It is about looking at the record of the resurrection and what the Jewish view is and why it is viewed the way that it is. Also to note: Non-Jewish are welcome to contribute, but in a spirit of being informative.

There are many areas of the N.T that connect “well” with the Torah about the day of the “resurrection ” (end of days) that could answer the question but perhaps not with the same “idea” with the Christian view, as noted in some of the information shared in previous post. Both Salty & 1FH had a very interesting conversation-Only the question was stated about the resurrection of Christ and how the Jews view the resurrection prior to the end of days? And Is this possible? I would hope to ask & wish that he conversation would continue with Christian & Jewish dialog but perhaps in the Unorthodox Theology board in order to give some room for both sides to post without any interference. If our Jewish members don’t feel they either want to address this topic because of further confrontations or will lead to other conversations down in another direction--then “No harm“ will come to those who want the thread to continue.

But with my two cents on the table: Is it possible for Jesus
Christ to have been risen from the dead? I say “Yes” with no doubts.

I want to correct a post that I had sent to the board and stress “With G-d anything is possible” and also to note a stance/or principle:

1st According to the 13 principles: "I believe with complete (perfect) faith, that there will be techiat hameitim - revival of the dead, whenever it will be God's , blessed be He, will (desire) to arise and do so. May (God's) Name be blessed, and may His remembrance arise, forever and ever"

Isn't this principle saying that G-d can revive the death at anytime "whenever it will be G-d's (blessed be He), will (desire)? So it would be possible for Christ to be resurrected and noting that there have been others like Elijah and to even note Moses.

What I had noticed in one of the verses in Mt 22:29-32 is that scripture states: He is not the God of the dead but of the living and then read Mark 12:26-27 when it states: “have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'?



So according to these passages….Christ (also) lives.






2nd “ QUESTION: The words "pituchei chotam" — "engraved like a signet ring" — seem to be superfluous. What are they teaching us?

ANSWER: The Gemara (Ta'anit 2a) states that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.

The word "pituchei" can be interpreted to mean "keys" (in Hebrew, "maftei'ach" is a key). The word "chotam" is an acronym for Chayah, techiat hameitim, matar. Thus, the Torah is implying that "pituchei" — the keys [to the treasures of] "chotam" are "kodesh laHashem" — uniquely reserved and sanctified, to be used only by Hashem Himself. LINK

Last comment and two passages: Matt 13:52-53

Regarding: "pituchei chotam" (entrusts the Tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures)
And he replied, "Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old."

And the 2nd passage:

Matt 24:45-47 Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

**Again, doesn’t it state: that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.

The parallel to some of the passages are too close.

Mitzi

[mitzi]

So all you're asking is about the possibility of the resurrection?

And "Christ is for Christians to follow not Jews" is basically missing the point then.

No. From the stand point of a tzaddikim & the resurrection. Was it possible for Jesus to have resurrected? (From my view point) the answer is "yes". But how do the Jews regard Jesus (first of all)? Do they regard him as among the righteous? That's where the starting point of the conversation is. If they don't regard him among the righteous..then you have your answer.

Question: What is the resurrection about (according to the Jewish text)? and Who was it for?

Jesus, in the passages given, was sooo close to the information about the Kingdom of Heaven and gave an excellent testimony that it would be difficult to assume that He was not counted among the righteous. From a Jewish perspective.....he was a false prophet. And that's really not soo.

Mitzi

[mitzi]

So all you're asking is about the possibility of the resurrection?

And "Christ is for Christians to follow not Jews" is basically missing the point then.

Sorry Easyboy201:

I was in such a rush this afternoon that I didn't really read the question you asked very well--big apology!!

To your remark: Quoted by Easyboy 201: So all you're asking is about the possibility of the resurrection?

No. From the stand point of a tzaddikim (a righteous person-a holy person/ the tzaddik is “the foundation of the world,”). The Tzaddik, in other words, was back then /and is today the head of a household. Was it possible for Jesus to have resurrected? (From my view point) the answer is "yes" because I have "no" doubts that Jesus was a "Tzaddikim" a holy & righteous person-and even more. But how do the Jews (and even according to scripture) regard Jesus (first of all)? Do they regard him as among the righteous ( focus on the trial)? If you read the passage on the burial of Jesus, who went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus? Note Luke23:50-51(Joseph from Arimathea)--a virtuous and righteous man, tzaddik, was a member of the council had not consented to their plan of action. So what was the original plan? That's where the starting point of the conversation is. If they don't regard him among the righteous..then you have your answer and that question being "How could "He" (Jesus) be resurrected?"

Next: What I had listed was Revelations: (To requote)

Big Question here: I'm wondering about the resurrected. Perhaps these souls are the 144,000 noted in Revelation 14:1-5....G-d's righteous(And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth) As noted in Mt 22:29-32 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. And listed, Talmudic aggadot [Vol. 5:129], s.v. "keshehem omdim" explains the comparison of wheat to man's resurrection. Wheat has no ministering angel and is subject to the direct care of G-d. Similarly, G-d retains the "key" of the resurrection of men.)

The main word in this question is "Redeemed" and now re-read Ruth and list to me what the word "redemption" means? According to revelations "And they sung as it were a new Song before the throne, and before the four beast, and the elders. Who is Jesus redeeming? and for what purpose? What is the purpose of the resurrection? Simple state in the verse....And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves.


Lets get some verbage out of the way: Define Tzaddikim? He is a righteous person. How is a righteous person "defined" according to the Jewish faith?

• A cardinal principle in the service of G‑d is that it be performed with joy — joy at the privilege of serving Him either through performing a positive command or by refraining from that which is prohibited
  
• the terms “who prospers” and “who suffers” also indicate and describe the level of the tzaddik
  
• The “complete tzaddik” is he who has attained perfection in his love of G‑d in a manner of ahavah betaanugim (“love of delights”) — the serene love of fulfillment. The tzaddik whose ahavah betaanugim is as yet imperfect is called the “incomplete (or unperfected) tzaddik.”

The resurrection (according to Jewish text) states: "And these are the ones who do not have a share in the world-to-come: He who says that the resurrection of the dead is not in the Torah, [he who says] that the Torah is not from Heaven, and the skeptic."

Mitzi

[mitzi]

I had looked up some addtl passages in John 12 to help me out and also I hope this will not be considered double posting:

John 12:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.

John 12:27 "I am troubled now. Yet what should I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it and will glorify it again."

Note (again): The main word in this question is "Redeemed" (and now re-read Ruth) and then list to me what the word "redemption" means? According to revelations "And they sung as it were a new Song before the throne, and before the four beast, and the elders. Who is Jesus redeeming? and for what purpose? What is the purpose of the resurrection? Simply stated: in the verse from John 12:27 (Father, glorify your name)....And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves

See Add notes from LINK:

In order to answer this question, Rabbi Rosanes refers us to a discussion in Ta’anit 2a-2b. There, it says that one of the “keys” which Hashem does not entrust to a messenger, but rather wields Himself, is the “key of the revival of the dead.” The source for this is the verse in Yechezkel (37:13):

And you shall know that I am Hashem, as I open your graves.

Hashem alone revives the dead, and He does not do so through a messenger. Furthermore, says Rabbi Rosanes, we see in the Passover Haggadah that the words “ I am Hashem” (Shemot 12:12) - which refers to the Exodus - means “I, and no one else” will bring you forth from Egypt.

See notations to this as well:

In the Hebrew, we say "You" and G-d's Name three times in the first verse of this prayer. There were three prophets (Eliyahu, Elisha, and Yechezkel), as well as some Sages in talmudic times who brought the dead back to life. (1Melachim 17:22; 2Melachim 4:35; Yechezkel 37:10) The Talmud says that G-d personally holds three "keys" to the world. (Taanit 2a) One of them is the "key" of rain, and one is resurrection of the dead. Talmud - Mas. Ta'anit 2a - 2b R. Johanan said: Three keys the Holy One blessed be He has retained in His own hands and not entrusted to the hand of any messenger, namely, the Key of Rain, the Key of Childbirth, and the Key of the Revival of the Dead. The Key of Rain, for It is written, Hashem will open unto you His good treasure, the heaven to give the rain of your land in its season,20 The Key of Childbirth, for it is written, And G-d remembered Rachel, and G-d hearkened to her, and opened her womb.1 The Key of the Revival of the Dead, for it is written, And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves.2 In Palestine they said: Also the Key of Sustenance, for it is said, You open Your hand etc.3 Why does not R. Johanan include also this [key]? — Because in his view sustenance is [included in] Rain.4


20 Devarim 28:12.
1 Berei[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] 30:22. R. Joshua stresses the connection between mafteach key (lit., opener’) and the verb patach to open, in the verses cited.
2 Yechezkel 37:13.
3 Tehillim 145:16.
4 Since it comes through rain.

Those people who have resurrected the dead have been able to do so only because G-d granted them the power to resurrect. We should not think that anyone has this as an independent ability, alongside of G-d. The ability always comes from the same source - G-d. That is why we reinforce three times in this verse that this power comes from You, G-d.

Matt 13:52-53

Regarding: "pituchei chotam" (entrusts the Tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures)
And he replied, "Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old."



****Matt 24:45-47 Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

**Again, doesn’t it state: that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.



and Last,


Next verse: John 12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself." If you see the same verse in Revelation 14:3 who had been ransomed from the earth Again the way both verses are stated is "From the earth"....should mean: resurrected. So in Revelation...the 144,000 are the righteous ones who will be resurrected.

[mitzi]

[QUOTE=mitzi;1898617]I had looked up some addtl passages in John 12 to help me out and also I hope this will not be considered double posting:

John 12:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.

John 12:27 "I am troubled now. Yet what should I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it and will glorify it again."

Note (again): The main word in this question is "Redeemed" (and now re-read Ruth) and then list to me what the word "redemption" means? According to revelations "And they sung as it were a new Song before the throne, and before the four beast, and the elders. Who is Jesus redeeming? and for what purpose? What is the purpose of the resurrection? Simply stated: in the verse from John 12:27 (Father, glorify your name)....And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves

See Add notes from LINK:

In order to answer this question, Rabbi Rosanes refers us to a discussion in Ta’anit 2a-2b. There, it says that one of the “keys” which Hashem does not entrust to a messenger, but rather wields Himself, is the “key of the revival of the dead.” The source for this is the verse in Yechezkel (37:13):

And you shall know that I am Hashem, as I open your graves.

Hashem alone revives the dead, and He does not do so through a messenger. Furthermore, says Rabbi Rosanes, we see in the Passover Haggadah that the words “ I am Hashem” (Shemot 12:12) - which refers to the Exodus - means “I, and no one else” will bring you forth from Egypt.

See notations to this as well:

In the Hebrew, we say "You" and G-d's Name three times in the first verse of this prayer. There were three prophets (Eliyahu, Elisha, and Yechezkel), as well as some Sages in talmudic times who brought the dead back to life. (1Melachim 17:22; 2Melachim 4:35; Yechezkel 37:10) The Talmud says that G-d personally holds three "keys" to the world. (Taanit 2a) One of them is the "key" of rain, and one is resurrection of the dead. Talmud - Mas. Ta'anit 2a - 2b R. Johanan said: Three keys the Holy One blessed be He has retained in His own hands and not entrusted to the hand of any messenger, namely, the Key of Rain, the Key of Childbirth, and the Key of the Revival of the Dead. The Key of Rain, for It is written, Hashem will open unto you His good treasure, the heaven to give the rain of your land in its season,20 The Key of Childbirth, for it is written, And G-d remembered Rachel, and G-d hearkened to her, and opened her womb.1 The Key of the Revival of the Dead, for it is written, And you shall know that I am Hashem, when I have opened your graves.2 In Palestine they said: Also the Key of Sustenance, for it is said, You open Your hand etc.3 Why does not R. Johanan include also this [key]? — Because in his view sustenance is [included in] Rain.4


20 Devarim 28:12.
1 Berei[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] 30:22. R. Joshua stresses the connection between mafteach key (lit., opener’) and the verb patach to open, in the verses cited.
2 Yechezkel 37:13.
3 Tehillim 145:16.
4 Since it comes through rain.

Those people who have resurrected the dead have been able to do so only because G-d granted them the power to resurrect. We should not think that anyone has this as an independent ability, alongside of G-d. The ability always comes from the same source - G-d. That is why we reinforce three times in this verse that this power comes from You, G-d.

Matt 13:52-53

Regarding: "pituchei chotam" (entrusts the Tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures)
And he replied, "Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old."



****Matt 24:45-47 Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

**Again, doesn’t it state: that Hashem entrusts the tzaddikim with keys to all His treasures. He appoints them as His messengers and gives them the power to use them as they see fit. An exception to this are the keys to three treasures: 1) The power enabling birth (chayah), 2) the power to resurrect (techiat hameisim), and 3) the power to make rain (matar). The keys to these treasures are reserved and controlled only by Him.



and Last, ADD......

John 12:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.


Mt 22:29-32 is that scripture states: He is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 24:5 " Why do you seek the living one among the dead?")and then read Mark 12:26-27 when it states: “have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'?


So according to these passages….Christ is not among the dead but among the living. He Lives in all of us.

[Salty]

Hi Salty:

Explain this to me? What is the difference (or is there even a difference between the two) techiyat ha-meitim- (future time when God will resurrect the dead/ in the messianic age our souls will be restored to our resurrected bodies) and yemot hamashiach -(yemot hage'ulah -which will happen only after the coming of the Messiah). Who has the authority to resurrect the dead? To continue:

The resurrection of the dead was stated as: a reward promised by G-d for the observance of the
Torah and its commandments (mitzvot) and also where the body is then reconnected to the soul.

There's a passage that states (and to note: within some circles/groups there have been questions regarding the resurrection-even in Jewish dialogue) see Mt 22:29-32: At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Which in all counts this passage is considered to be "very" true. See website: LINK
Talmudic aggadot [Vol. 5:129], s.v. "keshehem omdim" explains the comparison of wheat to man's resurrection. Wheat has no ministering angel and is subject to the direct care of G-d. Similarly, G-d retains the "key" of the resurrection of men.)

Hi, Mitzi. Sorry to be so long away.

You're over my head with the above. The link you gave was interesting, and I appreciate it. But I'm not sure what you read there that you think gives Rabbinic agreement with Matt 22:29-32. Can you expand on your thoughts? Or have I waited so long you've forgotten your point?

[Salty]

Where do we start in cutting down a hollow tree.

I usually start with one of Paul's epistles, but Matthew is a good place to start cutting, if you like keeping things in order.

You'll just have to show to us how Genesis has been misinterpreted by Christians. We can't exactly go verse by verse looking for the ultimate subcontext. Thanks for the links though, will definitely check them out.

I don't recall mentioning Genesis specifically. But now that you did, the first example that comes to mind is Genesis 3:15, which you misinterpret as a messianic prophecy about Jesus conquering satan. Again, "seed" is always used in the Hebrew Bible to speak of physical descendents, never spiritual.

Actually, Isaiah stops talking about Israel at 52:12.

No, he doesn't. Every time Isaiah quotes G-d as saying "My servant" or refers to "His servant" it is talking about Israel, sometimes using Jacob to mean Israel, but always the context of "My servant" and "My righteous servant" shows it to mean Israel, not messiah.

Umm, since exactly two verses before that, 53:8 Isaiah says the suffering servant has no descendants, this can only mean one of two things: Isaiah is really dumb and couldn't remember what he wrote two verses before, or it's a deeper meaning than physical offspring.

Try a third explanation: your translation is incorrect. The correct translation of 53:8 is, "Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living [Salty: the Land of Israel], an affliction upon them that was my people's sin." See? Nothing about not having offspring.

Translation: I think I've killed every possible Christian defense by this brilliant reinterpretation so I'll just finish it off with a "there are a lot of books out there that support me" statement.

Would you like to borrow some Windex? Your crystal ball is too foggy for you to do any accurate mind reading.

I guess since a debate can never survive without one or both persons to hide/personally reinterpret evidence, why don't we just give an unbiased source that overwhelmingly shows the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

You're kidding. You're actually using a wikipedia entry as overwhelming proof of a historical Jesus? Well, okay, this might be fun. I'll read it.

[read...read...read... humph... read...read... oh, I see... read...read... interesting... read... etc]

Okay, I see nothing in that article that quotes any extra-NT account of Jesus. Every place where it hints at a secular source, it's followed by [citation needed]. Then many of the sections have editorial notes that say "An editor has expressed the opinion that this article or section is unbalanced." or "This article or section does not adequately cite its references or sources" or "The neutrality of this article is disputed." In fact, it lists no secular, non-Christian sources at all. In other words, it's a far, far cry from an "unbiased source," much less "overwhelmingly show[ing] the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth."

Okay, but that article links to another called "Historicity of Jesus". However, it's a disappointment to your historical Jesus, too, as its thorough examination of all extra-NT accounts of Jesus show that while they are chock full of the antics of Christians, none actually speak of a historical man ini a historical context. The closest that does is the one by Tacitus, but aside from the fact that his account disagrees with the gospels about Pontius Pilate's title, it begs the question as to why a Roman non-Christian would refer to an executed Jew as "Christus" rather than his actual name, Jesus. It makes one wonder whether his source was more hearsay (maybe from the legends the Christians had been spreading about their faith), rather than from some actual historical record.

Nice try. Please play again.

[mitzi]

Hi, Mitzi. Sorry to be so long away.

You're over my head with the above. The link you gave was interesting, and I appreciate it. But I'm not sure what you read there that you think gives Rabbinic agreement with Matt 22:29-32. Can you expand on your thoughts? Or have I waited so long you've forgotten your point?

Lol....Hi Salty. Yes, You waited to long. I've been just sitting around wondering when you would come back

[mitzi]

Hi, Mitzi. Sorry to be so long away.

You're over my head with the above. The link you gave was interesting, and I appreciate it. But I'm not sure what you read there that you think gives Rabbinic agreement with Matt 22:29-32. Can you expand on your thoughts? Or have I waited so long you've forgotten your point?

Let's re-post the passage:

There's a passage that states (and to note: within some circles/groups there have been questions regarding the resurrection-even in Jewish dialogue) see Mt 22:29-32: At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."


The resurrection of the dead (as stated in Wikipedia) A belief in bodily resurrection is one of the Thirteen Principles of Faith of Maimonides central to Orthodox Judaism. Resurrection is the thirteenth principle:

"I believe with complete (perfect) faith, that there will be techiat hameitim - revival of the dead, whenever it will be God's, blessed be He, will (desire) to arise and do so. May (God's) Name be blessed, and may His remembrance arise, forever and ever."

As Aish.com states: (Malachi 3:23). This Day of Judgment is the day of the resurrection of the dead, when all will be judged as to their position in the World to Come. Until resurrection, no human being enters the World to Come.

These righteous souls that will arise in "end of days" will neither marry nor are they given into marriage but are like the angels in heaven....Stated in Luke 20:Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

As is state in Talmudic aggadot [Vol. 5:129], s.v. "keshehem omdim" explains the comparison of wheat to man's resurrection. Wheat has no ministering angel and is subject to the direct care of G-d. Similarly, G-d retains the "key" of the resurrection of men.

[mitzi]

Hi, Mitzi. Sorry to be so long away.

You're over my head with the above. The link you gave was interesting, and I appreciate it. But I'm not sure what you read there that you think gives Rabbinic agreement with Matt 22:29-32. Can you expand on your thoughts? Or have I waited so long you've forgotten your point?

O.K. Now that you and I are both informed about the resurrection can you tell me, and from the information posted and from a Jewish/Noahide perspective "What is the Jewish view of the resurrection of Jesus?" Remembering there was a trial and from that trial wasn't there a verdict? What did the "The Great Sanhedrin" rule? (assembly of Jewish judges who constituted the supreme court and legislative body of ancient Israel) and at that point would Jesus have risen from the dead (resurrect)-according to a Jewish perspective?

Judaism 101: the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. Who won't be at the resurrection?

The problem is and still remains that if Jesus body (even then-as Hashem can resurrect (at anytime-at will) the body of the righteous) again stating: whenever it will be God's , blessed be He, will (desire) to arise and do so. In the Hebrew, we say "You" and G-d's Name three times in the first verse of this prayer. There were three prophets (Eliyahu, Elisha, and Yechezkel), as well as some Sages in talmudic times who brought the dead back to life. (1Melachim 17:22; 2Melachim 4:35; Yechezkel 37:10) The Talmud says that G-d personally holds three "keys" to the world. (Taanit 2a) One of them is the "key" of rain, and one is resurrection of the dead.

Since Hashem is the one who hold the keys to the resurrection and those keys are "not" entrust to a messenger nor entrusts to the Tzaddikim.....Would it be fair to say that the trial (good or bad) could not play a deciding factor into the afterlife/or the World to Come. Jesus (regardless of the verdict) and by G-d will could have resurrection from the dead......at any point--even before that time......

Yes let's play again.
Mitzi

[mitzi]

redirect:

Since Hashem is the one who hold the keys to the resurrection and those keys are "not" entrust to a messenger nor entrusts to the Tzaddikim.....]Would it be fair to say that the trial (good or bad) could not play a deciding factor into the afterlife/or the World to Come. Jesus (regardless of the verdict) and by G-d's will could have resurrected Jesus from the dead......at any point--even before that time, Messianic Age (refer specifically to the time of the messiah).