Determinism, Compatibilsm, Free Will, Ex Nihilo

[seven7up]

Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


Saved
2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


Unsaved
1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


-7up

[whag]

Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


Saved
2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


Unsaved
1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary







Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


-7up

What actions would earn either state in your estimation?

[seven7up]

What actions would earn either state in your estimation?

Does it matter?

Maybe no action is necessary. Maybe just a certain belief is necessary, but it doesn't matter in the scenario proposed above. We are just talking about outcomes, and the proposed God "foreknows" the outcomes.

Also, I placed it as half and half, but let's say that "Christianity" is the "correct" religion. What percentage of the world historical population would fall under the category of being saved VS unsaved? This is not really necessary for us to consider the proposition above either, ... but just something to think about as we move forward.

-7up

[37818]

Given any number of beliefs. The more, the more likely what one chooses to believe will be wrong.

[Spartacus]

I feel like this thread could be broken up into several. I know a bit about the ex nihilo discussion-- where the idea coems from, how it compares to the cosmologies of different parts of the Bible-- but I haven't put serious thought or study into free will in a long time.

[Psychic Missile]

This is just a thought I had. I know you mentioned free choice, but it can't be assumed that there is no such thing as cause and effect. It may be that some saved are only such if another is unsaved. For example, one's injustice might drive another to heroic action. There could be some equilibrium where a minimum number of unsaved are needed to have a greater number saved, or in other words, if those unsaved didn't exist, some of the saved would become unsaved again and again until there is no longer a sustainable population.

[shunyadragon]

Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


Saved
2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


Unsaved
1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


-7up

Interesting, but there is a significant problem here. Different individuals do not necessarily specifically reject salvation as defined be different religious beliefs when they chose what to believe or not believe. Most often when the reject one specific church or religions belief in salvation they are rejecting that path of salvation, and not rejecting salvation.

Most people do not make a conscious effort to objective choices and evaluate and understand different belief systems concerning what to believe to be saved and simple accept what their parents and pier group in their culture believe.

[JimL]

Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


Saved
2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


Unsaved
1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


-7up

As far as I can't tell, it doesn't matter, the plain fact that god has knowledge of the future of those that will be saved shows that they do not have a free choice in the matter.

[seven7up]

... It may be that some saved are only such if another is unsaved. For example, one's injustice might drive another to heroic action. There could be some equilibrium where a minimum number of unsaved are needed to have a greater number saved, or in other words, if those unsaved didn't exist, some of the saved would become unsaved again and again until there is no longer a sustainable population.

Are you suggesting that people will only choose God/Heaven ONLY if they think that there are other people going to hell?


-7up

[seven7up]

As far as I can't tell, it doesn't matter, the plain fact that god has knowledge of the future of those that will be saved shows that they do not have a free choice in the matter.

This is where compatibilism comes in.

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is worth saying again here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does God know everything? Or does God know everything that is possible to know?

Does God know all that will happen because God lives outside of time altogether? or Does God have foreknowledge because of some kind of hyper-intelligent prediction?

The kind of free will we have depends on the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience. We don't know the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience, so we cannot say for sure what kind of free will we have.
--------------------------------------------------------

For now, let's just say that God DOES have perfect foreknowledge. Combatibilism, in this scenario, is the only good option.

Free will has its limits. I believe that I have free will, but I am not free to walk out my front door, jump in the air, and fly away like Superman. That simply is not an option. Likewise, in this scenario, the individuals are free to choose their fate, but they are not free to choose something other than what God knew they were going to choose. This does not mean that God forced each individual's choices.

-7up

[seven7up]

Interesting, but there is a significant problem here. Different individuals do not necessarily specifically reject salvation as defined be different religious beliefs when they chose what to believe or not believe. Most often when the reject one specific church or religions belief in salvation they are rejecting that path of salvation, and not rejecting salvation.

Most people do not make a conscious effort to objective choices and evaluate and understand different belief systems concerning what to believe to be saved and simple accept what their parents and pier group in their culture believe.

That is going beyond the point from the original post and into unnecessary details. The idea is that some are "saved" (heaven , however you imagine it) and some are not. Let's say that God knows the outcome of each individual. Is God obligated to create individuals who He knows (knows before he even creates them) will suffer in hell for forever?

-7up

[seven7up]

Let's look at compatibilism this way: Let's say that God is going to roll some dice.

Let's say that God was the only Being in existence, then decides to create some six sided cubes that roll randomly 7 times and then die (pun intended.)

Note: Keep in mind that the logic holds true even if they are twenty sided dice, or if they roll a hundred times or whatever.

In this case, God creates these cubes from God's own mind, but they will roll "random" numbers. Let's say that the four cubes that God creates will roll as follows:

A) 1, 3, 5, 1, 1, 5, 3...

B) 2, 6, 4, 6, 6, 4, 2...

C) 2, 2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 3...

D) 1, 1, 5, 5, 2, 6, 3...


God knows what the combination is going to be before he even decides to create any one of these cubes. Now, let's say that God, in his mind says, "I like even numbers, not odd numbers" (Or if you want to look at it as even numbers are righteous acts, and odd numbers are sins).

Now, God could say, "I want to create the cube that will randomly roll as cube B did, because all the random rolls were even. I definitely don't want A ... so I will not create it. I don't want to create D either. Maybe I will let C slide because it is pretty good."

So, God decides to create ONLY cube B .. and C if he feels like it.


God IS ultimately determining which number combination will be rolled, but each individual roll IS random. This is combatibilism, but we must admit that it is determinism as well.


-7up

[shunyadragon]

That is going beyond the point from the original post and into unnecessary details. The idea is that some are "saved" (heaven , however you imagine it) and some are not. Let's say that God knows the outcome of each individual. Is God obligated to create individuals who He knows (knows before he even creates them) will suffer in hell for forever?

-7up

There are two perspectives here; one the human perspective of the decision to chose the path that the person believes will lead to salvation, and God's perspective where God makes the determination as to who is saved and not saved. You apparently are addressing the problems of this issue from God's perspective.

You are proposing a hard determinism, like Calvinism, that God knows before hand who is saved and who is not saved, and question is what is God's responsibility toward the salvation of individuals. In a simple answer God has no responsibility to Create, Reveal, nor judge beyond the nature that God is God the omnipotent, all powerful God.

The problem I have is the assumption of hard determinism from God's perspective, and the finality of judgement as proposed above.

God IS ultimately determining which number combination will be rolled, but each individual roll IS random. This is compatibilism (note sp change), but we must admit that it is determinism as well.

If God ultimated knows or determines everything this would not be compatibilism, it is hard determinism. Compatibilism acknowledges the framework of determinism, but also acknowledges that everything is not pre-determined, and such things as moral responsibility have an element of free will.

Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

© Copyright Original Source

[Psychic Missile]

Are you suggesting that people will only choose God/Heaven ONLY if they think that there are other people going to hell?


-7up

No. I am suggesting that it is possible that some people are compelled to do heroic deeds only in the face of evil deeds.

Going with your dice analogy, we can imagine those dice bouncing off of each other as they are all rolled at once. If some dice were excluded, the results would be different.

It's also possible, and a separate idea, that God has the capability of knowing the outcomes of those dice rolls, but chooses not to know them.

[bling]