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Determinism, Compatibilsm, Free Will, Ex Nihilo

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  • Determinism, Compatibilsm, Free Will, Ex Nihilo

    Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

    Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


    Saved
    2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


    Unsaved
    1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




    Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

    In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


    There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


    -7up

  • #2
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

    Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


    Saved
    2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


    Unsaved
    1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary







    Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

    In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


    There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


    -7up

    What actions would earn either state in your estimation?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      What actions would earn either state in your estimation?
      Does it matter?

      Maybe no action is necessary. Maybe just a certain belief is necessary, but it doesn't matter in the scenario proposed above. We are just talking about outcomes, and the proposed God "foreknows" the outcomes.

      Also, I placed it as half and half, but let's say that "Christianity" is the "correct" religion. What percentage of the world historical population would fall under the category of being saved VS unsaved? This is not really necessary for us to consider the proposition above either, ... but just something to think about as we move forward.

      -7up
      Last edited by seven7up; 12-12-2015, 11:26 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Given any number of beliefs. The more, the more likely what one chooses to believe will be wrong.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          I feel like this thread could be broken up into several. I know a bit about the ex nihilo discussion-- where the idea coems from, how it compares to the cosmologies of different parts of the Bible-- but I haven't put serious thought or study into free will in a long time.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • #6
            This is just a thought I had. I know you mentioned free choice, but it can't be assumed that there is no such thing as cause and effect. It may be that some saved are only such if another is unsaved. For example, one's injustice might drive another to heroic action. There could be some equilibrium where a minimum number of unsaved are needed to have a greater number saved, or in other words, if those unsaved didn't exist, some of the saved would become unsaved again and again until there is no longer a sustainable population.
            Last edited by Psychic Missile; 12-13-2015, 03:16 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

              Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


              Saved
              2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


              Unsaved
              1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




              Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

              In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


              There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


              -7up
              Interesting, but there is a significant problem here. Different individuals do not necessarily specifically reject salvation as defined be different religious beliefs when they chose what to believe or not believe. Most often when the reject one specific church or religions belief in salvation they are rejecting that path of salvation, and not rejecting salvation.

              Most people do not make a conscious effort to objective choices and evaluate and understand different belief systems concerning what to believe to be saved and simple accept what their parents and pier group in their culture believe.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 08:15 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                Let's start simple and pretend for a moment that God can create beings who are free to choose. There are assumptions made with this idea/statement, some of them false, but just play along for a moment.

                Let's say that God creates 20 people, numbered below. And let's say that the even numbers will choose salvation and the odd numbers damnation.


                Saved
                2) Bob, 4) Frank, 6) Sara, 8) Marcus, 10) Isabel, 12) Johnny, 14) Matilda, 16) Joseph, 18) Simon, 20) Karina


                Unsaved
                1) Cain , 3) Matt, 5) Alicia, 7) Carmen, 9) Nathan, 11) Jeremy, 13) Candace, 15) Javier, 17) Jose, 19) Mary




                Would those who chose salvation be any less free if God simply did not create unsaved in the first place? (Would they not have free will?)

                In other words, isn't there a false logical assumption to believe that God must create people He knows will be damned in order for there to be free will for those who God knows will be saved?


                There is much more to discuss here; I just wanted to get the ball rolling.


                -7up
                As far as I can't tell, it doesn't matter, the plain fact that god has knowledge of the future of those that will be saved shows that they do not have a free choice in the matter.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                  ... It may be that some saved are only such if another is unsaved. For example, one's injustice might drive another to heroic action. There could be some equilibrium where a minimum number of unsaved are needed to have a greater number saved, or in other words, if those unsaved didn't exist, some of the saved would become unsaved again and again until there is no longer a sustainable population.
                  Are you suggesting that people will only choose God/Heaven ONLY if they think that there are other people going to hell?


                  -7up

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    As far as I can't tell, it doesn't matter, the plain fact that god has knowledge of the future of those that will be saved shows that they do not have a free choice in the matter.
                    This is where compatibilism comes in.

                    I mentioned this on another thread, but it is worth saying again here:
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Does God know everything? Or does God know everything that is possible to know?

                    Does God know all that will happen because God lives outside of time altogether? or Does God have foreknowledge because of some kind of hyper-intelligent prediction?

                    The kind of free will we have depends on the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience. We don't know the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience, so we cannot say for sure what kind of free will we have.
                    --------------------------------------------------------

                    For now, let's just say that God DOES have perfect foreknowledge. Combatibilism, in this scenario, is the only good option.

                    Free will has its limits. I believe that I have free will, but I am not free to walk out my front door, jump in the air, and fly away like Superman. That simply is not an option. Likewise, in this scenario, the individuals are free to choose their fate, but they are not free to choose something other than what God knew they were going to choose. This does not mean that God forced each individual's choices.

                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Interesting, but there is a significant problem here. Different individuals do not necessarily specifically reject salvation as defined be different religious beliefs when they chose what to believe or not believe. Most often when the reject one specific church or religions belief in salvation they are rejecting that path of salvation, and not rejecting salvation.

                      Most people do not make a conscious effort to objective choices and evaluate and understand different belief systems concerning what to believe to be saved and simple accept what their parents and pier group in their culture believe.

                      That is going beyond the point from the original post and into unnecessary details. The idea is that some are "saved" (heaven , however you imagine it) and some are not. Let's say that God knows the outcome of each individual. Is God obligated to create individuals who He knows (knows before he even creates them) will suffer in hell for forever?

                      -7up

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Let's look at compatibilism this way: Let's say that God is going to roll some dice.

                        Let's say that God was the only Being in existence, then decides to create some six sided cubes that roll randomly 7 times and then die (pun intended.)

                        Note: Keep in mind that the logic holds true even if they are twenty sided dice, or if they roll a hundred times or whatever.

                        In this case, God creates these cubes from God's own mind, but they will roll "random" numbers. Let's say that the four cubes that God creates will roll as follows:

                        A) 1, 3, 5, 1, 1, 5, 3...

                        B) 2, 6, 4, 6, 6, 4, 2...

                        C) 2, 2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 3...

                        D) 1, 1, 5, 5, 2, 6, 3...


                        God knows what the combination is going to be before he even decides to create any one of these cubes. Now, let's say that God, in his mind says, "I like even numbers, not odd numbers" (Or if you want to look at it as even numbers are righteous acts, and odd numbers are sins).

                        Now, God could say, "I want to create the cube that will randomly roll as cube B did, because all the random rolls were even. I definitely don't want A ... so I will not create it. I don't want to create D either. Maybe I will let C slide because it is pretty good."

                        So, God decides to create ONLY cube B .. and C if he feels like it.


                        God IS ultimately determining which number combination will be rolled, but each individual roll IS random. This is combatibilism, but we must admit that it is determinism as well.


                        -7up

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                          That is going beyond the point from the original post and into unnecessary details. The idea is that some are "saved" (heaven , however you imagine it) and some are not. Let's say that God knows the outcome of each individual. Is God obligated to create individuals who He knows (knows before he even creates them) will suffer in hell for forever?

                          -7up
                          There are two perspectives here; one the human perspective of the decision to chose the path that the person believes will lead to salvation, and God's perspective where God makes the determination as to who is saved and not saved. You apparently are addressing the problems of this issue from God's perspective.

                          You are proposing a hard determinism, like Calvinism, that God knows before hand who is saved and who is not saved, and question is what is God's responsibility toward the salvation of individuals. In a simple answer God has no responsibility to Create, Reveal, nor judge beyond the nature that God is God the omnipotent, all powerful God.

                          The problem I have is the assumption of hard determinism from God's perspective, and the finality of judgement as proposed above.

                          God IS ultimately determining which number combination will be rolled, but each individual roll IS random. This is compatibilism (note sp change), but we must admit that it is determinism as well.
                          If God ultimated knows or determines everything this would not be compatibilism, it is hard determinism. Compatibilism acknowledges the framework of determinism, but also acknowledges that everything is not pre-determined, and such things as moral responsibility have an element of free will.

                          Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/


                          Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-14-2015, 07:42 AM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            Are you suggesting that people will only choose God/Heaven ONLY if they think that there are other people going to hell?


                            -7up
                            No. I am suggesting that it is possible that some people are compelled to do heroic deeds only in the face of evil deeds.

                            Going with your dice analogy, we can imagine those dice bouncing off of each other as they are all rolled at once. If some dice were excluded, the results would be different.

                            It's also possible, and a separate idea, that God has the capability of knowing the outcomes of those dice rolls, but chooses not to know them.
                            Last edited by Psychic Missile; 12-14-2015, 01:21 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and many experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative is it for God, who possible even created “time”?

                              If God id not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (this suggest God would be outside of time.)

                              God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

                              It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

                              God would thus know all there is to know, but that does not mean God knows that which cannot be known. As this would relate to man: At the same instant God decides to make a human for God; that being was born lived made some very limited sovereign free will choices, died and went to in heaven or hell (it is all history for God). If God does not decide to make a being (there is an infinite number of these) then God does not know what this non-ever to exist being did, since it did not do anything.

                              To understand the logic behind having time you have to understand the objective:

                              God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

                              This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

                              Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

                              So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

                              The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

                              Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

                              Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

                              Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?
                              What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

                              Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

                              Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

                              God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

                              The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.
                              Last edited by bling; 12-14-2015, 04:36 PM.

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