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Determinism, Compatibilsm, Free Will, Ex Nihilo

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    Let's look at compatibilism this way: Let's say that God is going to roll some dice.

    Let's say that God was the only Being in existence, then decides to create some six sided cubes that roll randomly 7 times and then die (pun intended.)

    Note: Keep in mind that the logic holds true even if they are twenty sided dice, or if they roll a hundred times or whatever.

    In this case, God creates these cubes from God's own mind, but they will roll "random" numbers. Let's say that the four cubes that God creates will roll as follows:

    A) 1, 3, 5, 1, 1, 5, 3...

    B) 2, 6, 4, 6, 6, 4, 2...

    C) 2, 2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 3...

    D) 1, 1, 5, 5, 2, 6, 3...


    God knows what the combination is going to be before he even decides to create any one of these cubes. Now, let's say that God, in his mind says, "I like even numbers, not odd numbers" (Or if you want to look at it as even numbers are righteous acts, and odd numbers are sins).

    Now, God could say, "I want to create the cube that will randomly roll as cube B did, because all the random rolls were even. I definitely don't want A ... so I will not create it. I don't want to create D either. Maybe I will let C slide because it is pretty good."

    So, God decides to create ONLY cube B .. and C if he feels like it.


    God IS ultimately determining which number combination will be rolled, but each individual roll IS random. This is combatibilism, but we must admit that it is determinism as well.


    -7up
    oh God... the dice crap again...
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
      This is where compatibilism comes in.

      I mentioned this on another thread, but it is worth saying again here:
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Does God know everything? Or does God know everything that is possible to know?

      Does God know all that will happen because God lives outside of time altogether? or Does God have foreknowledge because of some kind of hyper-intelligent prediction?

      The kind of free will we have depends on the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience. We don't know the nature of God's foreknowledge/omniscience, so we cannot say for sure what kind of free will we have.
      --------------------------------------------------------

      For now, let's just say that God DOES have perfect foreknowledge. Combatibilism, in this scenario, is the only good option.

      Free will has its limits. I believe that I have free will, but I am not free to walk out my front door, jump in the air, and fly away like Superman. That simply is not an option. Likewise, in this scenario, the individuals are free to choose their fate, but they are not free to choose something other than what God knew they were going to choose. This does not mean that God forced each individual's choices.

      -7up
      If god created them, and has knowledge of their future choices, then they were never free to choose otherwise. If god knows from the moment of your birth what your choices will be, then the only logical way to argue that he could know that, is because he designed you that way.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        If god created them, and has knowledge of their future choices, then they were never free to choose otherwise.
        Only if He pre-made the choices FOR them instead of simply foreknowing them by virtue of His timelessness and omniscience and then creating them according to that knowledge.

        If god knows from the moment of your birth what your choices will be, then the only logical way to argue that he could know that, is because he designed you that way.
        But the only way He would "design you that way" was if He already foreknew your free will choices. Had you chosen something different, then He would have foreknown THAT reality, not the other one where the first choice was made. God only foreknows what WILL happen, and creates based on that knowledge.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by bling View Post
          If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (this suggest God would be outside of time.)

          God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

          It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.
          Even scientifically it is easy to envision God outside of time, because time as we know it only exists in our time/space relationship of our universe. Our time began with the Big Bang and fill fade in cold Quantum darkness. When the matter and energy discipate into Quantum zero point energy at absolute zero our time will end.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Only if He pre-made the choices FOR them instead of simply foreknowing them by virtue of His timelessness and omniscience and then creating them according to that knowledge.



            But the only way He would "design you that way" was if He already foreknew your free will choices. Had you chosen something different, then He would have foreknown THAT reality, not the other one where the first choice was made. God only foreknows what WILL happen, and creates based on that knowledge.
            You're just making my point Bill. Gods creation doesn't exist until he creates it, so to say that god had foreknowledge of that which he had yet to bring into existence, is just a kind of awkward way of saying that his creations are exactly what he intended of them. If a designer knows in his mind exactly the pattern that his creation will follow before he constructs it, then the created thing itself, once it is created, has no choice but to follow that pattern.
            Your last sentence above "God only foreknows what will happen, and creates based on that knowledge" gives credence to that point.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              You're just making my point Bill. Gods creation doesn't exist until he creates it,
              In His mind, it exists, and all of the choices that have ever been made existed to Him. He didn't make the choices, but knew them as we made them.

              so to say that god had foreknowledge of that which he had yet to bring into existence, is just a kind of awkward way of saying that his creations are exactly what he intended of them.
              Only because He is bound by His foreknowledge of our choices. He can not "intend" something we did not choose.

              If a designer knows in his mind exactly the pattern that his creation will follow before he constructs it, then the created thing itself, once it is created, has no choice but to follow that pattern.
              But how was the pattern chosen in the first place? Did we take the right fork because God only created the right fork, or did God only create the right fork because He foreknew we already chose the right fork?

              Your last sentence above "God only foreknows what will happen, and creates based on that knowledge" gives credence to that point.
              Only if you ascribe our linear time to God's existence.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                You are proposing a hard determinism, like Calvinism, that God knows before hand who is saved and who is not saved, .....
                Are you proposing that God does NOT know?

                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                In a simple answer God has no responsibility to Create, Reveal, nor judge beyond the nature that God is God the omnipotent, all powerful God.
                ... um OK.

                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                If God ultimated knows or determines everything this would not be compatibilism, it is hard determinism.
                Well, it isn't "knows OR determines". Knowing, in and of itself, does not determine anything. I may "know" that my daughter will choose vanilla ice cream rather than chocolate, but knowing did not determine her decision.

                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Compatibilism acknowledges the framework of determinism, but also acknowledges that everything is not pre-determined, and such things as moral responsibility have an element of free will.
                So, it acknowledges determinism, but denies that things are pre-determined.

                Methinks there is a problem here. If it isn't the knowledge that determines something , then what? What DETERMINES the outcomes?


                -7up

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  In His mind, it exists, and all of the choices that have ever been made existed to Him. He didn't make the choices, but knew them as we made them.
                  How can god know the choices we made, before we existed? If we didn't yet exist, we didn't make any choices.


                  Only because He is bound by His foreknowledge of our choices. He can not "intend" something we did not choose.
                  Again, that makes no sense Bill. We can't choose anything if we don't yet exist.


                  But how was the pattern chosen in the first place? Did we take the right fork because God only created the right fork, or did God only create the right fork because He foreknew we already chose the right fork?
                  Again you are not making sense. We can not choose either the right fork, the left fork, or the dinner fork, if we don't yet exist. Where are you getting this idea that non existing things make choices?


                  Only if you ascribe our linear time to God's existence.
                  That has nothing to do with anything. If we don't yet exist, then we don't yet exist, no matter what time it is.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    No. I am suggesting that it is possible that some people are compelled to do heroic deeds only in the face of evil deeds.

                    Going with your dice analogy, we can imagine those dice bouncing off of each other as they are all rolled at once. If some dice were excluded, the results would be different.
                    So, our choices are based on our environment, rather than something within ourselves? Is that what you are saying?

                    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    It's also possible, and a separate idea, that God has the capability of knowing the outcomes of those dice rolls, but chooses not to know them.
                    I've heard that one before. God puts on a "cosmic blind fold", because he doesn't want to know that he is creating Hitler, when he creates Hitler. However, that doesn't really remove God from responsibility, does it?

                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      How can god know the choices we made, before we existed? If we didn't yet exist, we didn't make any choices.
                      Because there is no such thing as "not yet" to God. It's called "the eternal now". He sees all times as now. He doesn't learn events as we experience them. His timelessness already knew them.



                      Again, that makes no sense Bill. We can't choose anything if we don't yet exist.
                      This very moment has always existed in God's mind.



                      Again you are not making sense. We can not choose either the right fork, the left fork, or the dinner fork, if we don't yet exist. Where are you getting this idea that non existing things make choices?
                      Because we choose them "now", and God has always known "now".



                      That has nothing to do with anything. If we don't exist, then we don't yet exist, no matter what time it is.
                      If you ascribe linear events to God's knowledge, you are making a mistake. He does not "pick new stuff up" after we do it, nor does He create stuff and make us fit to it. He has always known these choices. And we have always existed in His mind as His foreknowledge of us and our choices.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        How can god know the choices we made, before we existed? If we didn't yet exist, we didn't make any choices.

                        Again, that makes no sense Bill. We can't choose anything if we don't yet exist.

                        Again you are not making sense. We can not choose either the right fork, the left fork, or the dinner fork, if we don't yet exist. Where are you getting this idea that non existing things make choices?


                        That has nothing to do with anything. If we don't yet exist, then we don't yet exist, no matter what time it is.
                        Like many, Bill has a "PanENtheistic" view of God (though, he wont admit it). Everything that exists and every act that was ever made was conceived in God's mind from eternity.

                        Obviously, this would mean that God's mind is the cause of everything in existence, and also the cause of every act in existence, but Bill refuses to see the logic in that. Instead, Bill wants to divorce God from the responsibility of those actions, by saying that God did not actually cause the things that are caused by what God caused. (God created beings of free will, because Bill says so ... ignore the logic please.)

                        In other words, Bill wants God to be the cause of all things, including uncaused causes.

                        Bill will not be swayed from his illogical perspective on this, so I would not waste your time if I were you.

                        -7up

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          7up wrote:

                          Let's look at compatibilism this way: Let's say that God is going to roll some dice.

                          Let's say that God was the only Being in existence, then decides to create some six sided cubes that roll randomly 7 times and then die (pun intended.)

                          Note: Keep in mind that the logic holds true even if they are twenty sided dice, or if they roll a hundred times or whatever.

                          In this case, God creates these cubes from God's own mind, but they will roll "random" numbers. Let's say that the four cubes that God creates will roll as follows:

                          A) 1, 3, 5, 1, 1, 5, 3...

                          B) 2, 6, 4, 6, 6, 4, 2...

                          C) 2, 2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 3...

                          D) 1, 1, 5, 5, 2, 6, 3...


                          God knows what the combination is going to be before he even decides to create any one of these cubes. Now, let's say that God, in his mind says, "I like even numbers, not odd numbers" (Or if you want to look at it as even numbers are righteous acts, and odd numbers are sins).


                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                          Back to this dice (six sided cube) example. Here, we can think about a set of "possible combinations" that can be rolled (Beyond the combination seen here, in mathematics, we study about an "infinite set of possible numbers", but let's keep it simple here for now).

                          When God creates the six-sided cube, there was a "possible cube" that would randomly/freely roll 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2. Let's say that 2 represents the best possible choice. God could create that cube if God wants to, and logically could create it (or one that happens to roll the same combination) over and over and over, since God has an infinite set of "possible cubes" that God could potentially create from nothing.

                          Anyone following me?

                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            Like many, Bill has a "PanENtheistic" view of God (though, he wont admit it). Everything that exists and every act that was ever made was conceived in God's mind from eternity.
                            Not quite. Ad the subtlety refutes your panentheistic claim. Nothing was "conceived" in God's mind. It simply existed there. For it to have been "conceived" means that before it was "conceived" it didn't exist there. That's not what I am claiming at all. Therefore, your charge is false.

                            Obviously, this would mean that God's mind is the cause of everything in existence, and also the cause of every act in existence, but Bill refuses to see the logic in that.
                            Because you have constructed a strawman.

                            Instead, Bill wants to divorce God from the responsibility of those actions, by saying that God did not actually cause the things that are caused by what God caused. (God created beings of free will, because Bill says so ... ignore the logic please.)
                            If you can get my argument right, then maybe you can have a chance to better understand it. As it is, you suffer from the very thing you accuse the others of - causing God to temporally exist and experience linearly. Although as a Mormon, you have no chance NOT to force that interpretation onto God.

                            In other words, Bill wants God to be the cause of all things, including uncaused causes.
                            No. In other words, you fail at analyzing what I am saying yet again.

                            Bill will not be swayed from his illogical perspective on this, so I would not waste your time if I were you.

                            -7up
                            Well, it's a good thing he isn't you, so please stop speaking like you know what either of us is saying. You obviously don't.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Not quite. Ad the subtlety refutes your panentheistic claim. Nothing was "conceived" in God's mind. It simply existed there. For it to have been "conceived" means that before it was "conceived" it didn't exist there. That's not what I am claiming at all. Therefore, your charge is false.
                              So, you are arguing that we are not created by God? Of course not. Here we go ...

                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Because you have constructed a strawman.
                              There is no "man" with you Bill. I have no choice but to build whatever it is you are describing with straw.

                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              If you can get my argument right, then maybe you can have a chance to better understand it. As it is, you suffer from the very thing you accuse the others of - causing God to temporally exist and experience linearly.
                              If God does not exist temporally, then there is no such thing as interpersonal relationships with God.

                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              INo. In other words, you fail at analyzing what I am saying yet again.

                              Well, it's a good thing he isn't you, so please stop speaking like you know what either of us is saying. You obviously don't.

                              I did not falsely reconstruct what you are arguing, because it is impossible to logically reconstruct what you are arguing.

                              This position you have taken is directly the result of you LOSING our previous debate.

                              I successfully explained how IF God creates Ex Nihilo (out of nothing), then God ultimately determines ALL OUTCOMES.

                              I explained that by rejecting ex nihilo, this problem can be avoided. However, this rejection of ex nihilo would mean that God must be creating out of something that has always existed in some form or another from eternity. Your misinterpretation of the Biblical text (and your refusal to accept the history of the development of Ex Nihilo) will not allow you to reject "creation out of nothing".

                              So, instead of agreeing with my argument, you instead retreated into the idea you are currently presenting, which is the idea that God did create ex nihilo, but we all existed eternally ... but, here's the twist ... we existed eternally ONLY in God's own mind. But the result is the same. This means that you are essentially arguing that WE ARE JUST AS ETERNAL AS GOD IS!

                              In other words, the only option left to you after you lost that debate, was to take a pseudo-Mormon position, but a PanENtheistic version of it.


                              -7up


                              P.S. Tell me Bill, do we even exist at all? Or is all of our reality and existence just playing out inside of God's mind still? If what you claim is true, would it matter either way?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by bling View Post
                                If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (this suggest God would be outside of time.)
                                There are false assumptions being made here. You are taking the properties of finite numbers and trying to apply those properties to infinities. It doesn't work that way.

                                That kind of argument reminds me of "Well, if a rocked goes half way from the Earth to the moon, then again half of that distance, and again half of the remaining distance ... it will never get there."

                                But, guess what? If you shoot a rocket at the moon .... it WILL get there. Assuming that it will ONLY go half way is a false assumption.

                                Also, assuming that time must always be linear isn't necessarily the way to go,

                                "I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man-the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man." - JS

                                Originally posted by bling View Post
                                It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

                                God would thus know all there is to know, but that does not mean God knows that which cannot be known. As this would relate to man: At the same instant God decides to make a human for God; that being was born lived made some very limited sovereign free will choices, died and went to in heaven or hell (it is all history for God). If God does not decide to make a being (there is an infinite number of these) then God does not know what this non-ever to exist being did, since it did not do anything.
                                BOLD added by 7up.

                                You out-thought yourself a little here. IF God lives outside of time altogether, then there is no "instant" when God "decides" anything. It simply IS. Therefore, God has no decision in the matter.

                                Just ask Bill. He will tell you all about it.


                                Originally posted by bling View Post
                                Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?
                                Well, according to Bill, apparently we have always existed in God's mind ... just like Jesus I guess!

                                But seriously,

                                ... in traditional Christian theology, there are "communicable attributes" and "non-communicable attributes" of God. Christians will say that God CANNOT create another being who has the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

                                However, if God can create any kind of being logically possible from nothing, then God could create someone with the "godly attributes" that are communicable, such as love, wisdom, patience, reverence, etc.

                                Tell me, is that the kind of world we live in? Or did God create people who lack many of these attributes?

                                What kind of world do we live in and what kind of people exist within it? We have a whole bunch of horrible sinners (more sinners than righteous people) who were created by God. Why?



                                -7up
                                Last edited by seven7up; 12-14-2015, 10:48 PM.

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