Another Glaring Factual Discrepency in the Quran

[barnasha]

Too bad Barny, I must honestly say, and with a very clear conscience, that none of your 'arguments' have refuted my posting of the fact that the QURAN itself DOES INDEED TEACH Wife-BEATING!!

all of your arguments trying to show this were refuted.

since you ignored those scholoarly refutations of your argument, I can only assume they are sound, and you are simply ignoring the fact that your argument is baseless, because you'd rather believe your conclusion without knowing whether or not it is based in actuality.

In fact, I have read your 'refutations', and am forced to conclude, that they are AT BEST, merely EXCUSES trying to minimise and to water-down the fact of the QURANIC INJUNCTION TO MUSLIM MEN TO BEAT AND TO SCOURGE THEIR WIVES - Physically, into submission.

If so, tell us how? Address the perfectly valid refutations I have made. Until you do, they remain valid.

Your speculation was addressed by me in a purely academic manner, and you have yet to respond in a manner befitting a scholarly discussion - but instead with more conjecture and opinion.

The references to the valid and authentic Islamic and expository sources above do support this point quite irrevocably. This is not something that happened just only yesterday, last week or even over the last decade. It has been there ever since this Verse Surah 4/34 was placed into your precious Quran! - Centuries ago since the very inception of Islam!

the quran is not mine, it is ours, it is the property of all mankind.. just like the torah and the gospel.

No! Its NOT just MY 'interpretation' as you wish to point out - erroneously, but it is valid fact and reality in the Quran and duly observed BY THE Faithful Muslimin (muslim men).

you asserted that that was their interpretation, but you were shown to be incorrect

circumstantial information such as certain people committing crimes or sin who happen to be of a muslim culture is irrelevant. that's like saying criminals who are French are criminals because France is a criminally oriented society.

(by the way, the arabic word muslimun, or "submitters", could refer to a group of male and female submitters)

You just have got to come to terms with this fact - painfully, Barnesha..!

Regards, Dan.

the day conjecture and opinion become fact is the day this conversation will devolve from an intelligent debate into an atavistic shouting match. or has that happened already?

[Dan Zebiri]

Its just too bad, Barny, since you yourself prove that you're nothing more than stuffing your head in the sands, like the proverbial ostrich. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose, and your choosing to ignore the actual FACTS that Surah 4/34 in your Quran teaches CLEARLY nothing else but WIFE BEATING on rebellious wives by their Muslim husbands...

Your so-called 'scholarly arguments' denying wife-beating enjoined by the Quran are nothing more than desperate SMOKE SCREENS trying vainly to deflect the impossible - the denial of the very same violent treatment of women instructed by the Quran..!!

Its NO wonder that the real practice of Muslim family life, THIS VERY practice of violence on muslim wives is common place in real life...:

http://mixmode.blogspot.com/2006/10/...e-beating.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_...ouses_in_Islam

In the latter we get factual proof from the Who Health Organization itself..:

"..The World Health Organization reports high levels of domestic abuse in Muslim countries with, for instance, over half of all Palestinian women reporting being beaten in the previous year. Not only do more Muslim women report being beaten than most non-Muslim women, the frequency of such beatings is usually much higher as well.

""..In some recent high-profile cases, Muslim women have had the courage to publicize their mistreatment at the hands of their husbands, in hopes that public condemnation of wife-beating will end toleration of the practice (see Rania al-Baz)."

The sooner you end your blind denial of the above, Barny boy, ALL THE MUCH BETTER FOR YOU!

Wake up, face the facts, and take accountabilty for such pious injunctions from the Quran itself, Barnasha!

Regards, Dan.

all of your arguments trying to show this were refuted.

since you ignored those scholoarly refutations of your argument, I can only assume they are sound, and you are simply ignoring the fact that your argument is baseless, because you'd rather believe your conclusion without knowing whether or not it is based in actuality.



If so, tell us how? Address the perfectly valid refutations I have made. Until you do, they remain valid.

Your speculation was addressed by me in a purely academic manner, and you have yet to respond in a manner befitting a scholarly discussion - but instead with more conjecture and opinion.



the quran is not mine, it is ours, it is the property of all mankind.. just like the torah and the gospel.



you asserted that that was their interpretation, but you were shown to be incorrect

circumstantial information such as certain people committing crimes or sin who happen to be of a muslim culture is irrelevant. that's like saying criminals who are French are criminals because France is a criminally oriented society.

(by the way, the arabic word muslimun, or "submitters", could refer to a group of male and female submitters)


the day conjecture and opinion become fact is the day this conversation will devolve from an intelligent debate into an atavistic shouting match. or has that happened already?

[moose7237]

Its just too bad, Barny, since you yourself prove that you're nothing more than stuffing your head in the sands, like the proverbial ostrich. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose, and your choosing to ignore the actual FACTS that Surah 4/34 in your Quran teaches CLEARLY nothing else but WIFE BEATING on rebellious wives by their Muslim husbands...

Your so-called 'scholarly arguments' denying wife-beating enjoined by the Quran are nothing more than desperate SMOKE SCREENS trying vainly to deflect the impossible - the denial of the very same violent treatment of women instructed by the Quran..!!

Its NO wonder that the real practice of Muslim family life, THIS VERY practice of violence on muslim wives is common place in real life...:

http://mixmode.blogspot.com/2006/10/...e-beating.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_...ouses_in_Islam

In the latter we get factual proof from the Who Health Organization itself..:

"..The World Health Organization reports high levels of domestic abuse in Muslim countries with, for instance, over half of all Palestinian women reporting being beaten in the previous year. Not only do more Muslim women report being beaten than most non-Muslim women, the frequency of such beatings is usually much higher as well.

""..In some recent high-profile cases, Muslim women have had the courage to publicize their mistreatment at the hands of their husbands, in hopes that public condemnation of wife-beating will end toleration of the practice (see Rania al-Baz)."

The sooner you end your blind denial of the above, Barny boy, ALL THE MUCH BETTER FOR YOU!

Wake up, face the facts, and take accountabilty for such pious injunctions from the Quran itself, Barnasha!

Regards, Dan.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Actually, Dan, verse 4:34 of the holy quran is when it refers to beating, it means it litghtly, and I think there is a hadith which has the prophet saying that the beating should be a gentle tap by a stick of some sort. Also, there are many meanings to the word "daraba" which is the root word "to beat" so please do visit this site for a better explanation:

http://www.quran-islam.org/228.html

Now you bring up muslim men beating their wives, yet I can bring up many things that are worse in the bible. Also, a man is not allowed to hurt his wife in Islam.

[Dan Zebiri]

And Howdy do to you, too...!

Not so fast, Moose...The reading given by other equally, if not better qualified, scholars is to beat or to scourge. .:


RODWELL [1]: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"

['Refractoriness' means hard or impossible to manage, stubbornly disobedient'].


DAWOOD [2]: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme."


PICKTHALL [3]: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."

ARBERRY [4]: "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."


SHAKIR [5]: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


ALI [6]: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).



I placed Ali's version last because I have an important comment to make on his translation. Ali knew he was writing for a Western audience and that wife beating is viewed as brutal in the West. Consequently, Ali inserted many of his own words into the Quran’s text in order to make it less harsh. This was deceptive on Ali's part. Ali inserted his comments at 9 different places in the 4:34 text. I've done a quick review through Ali's Quran, and have not found any other verse with that many insertions. Clearly something was troubling him to cause him to add so much. Notice not one other translation has anything remotely near "lightly" when talking about the physical beating a man is supposed to give his wife. Ali was in part a Muslim apologist and his work here was meant to hide and soften the Quran’s real meaning.

And Asad also uses the word 'Scourge' or Beat to rightly translate the word in 4/34.

So, I cannot buy into your propogandistic theory that its not a real beating at all, in the light of the above.

Also, theres no way you can find in the New Testament, something similar to wife-beating in the Quran...! :) It does not countenance that at all!

Regards, Dan

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Actually, Dan, verse 4:34 of the holy quran is when it refers to beating, it means it litghtly, and I think there is a hadith which has the prophet saying that the beating should be a gentle tap by a stick of some sort. Also, there are many meanings to the word "daraba" which is the root word "to beat" so please do visit this site for a better explanation:

http://www.quran-islam.org/228.html

Now you bring up muslim men beating their wives, yet I can bring up many things that are worse in the bible. Also, a man is not allowed to hurt his wife in Islam.

[mastralvarado]

And Howdy do to you, too...!

Not so fast, Moose...The reading given by other equally, if not better qualified, scholars is to beat or to scourge. .:


RODWELL [1]: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"

['Refractoriness' means hard or impossible to manage, stubbornly disobedient'].


DAWOOD [2]: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme."


PICKTHALL [3]: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."

ARBERRY [4]: "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."


SHAKIR [5]: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


ALI [6]: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).



I placed Ali's version last because I have an important comment to make on his translation. Ali knew he was writing for a Western audience and that wife beating is viewed as brutal in the West. Consequently, Ali inserted many of his own words into the Quran’s text in order to make it less harsh. This was deceptive on Ali's part. Ali inserted his comments at 9 different places in the 4:34 text. I've done a quick review through Ali's Quran, and have not found any other verse with that many insertions. Clearly something was troubling him to cause him to add so much. Notice not one other translation has anything remotely near "lightly" when talking about the physical beating a man is supposed to give his wife. Ali was in part a Muslim apologist and his work here was meant to hide and soften the Quran’s real meaning.

And Asad also uses the word 'Scourge' or Beat to rightly translate the word in 4/34.

So, I cannot buy into your propogandistic theory that its not a real beating at all, in the light of the above.

Also, theres no way you can find in the New Testament, something similar to wife-beating in the Quran...! :) It does not countenance that at all!

Regards, Dan

This thread is pointless. Beating or treating, it is irrelevant. If a man has sex with his wife, the man is penetrating her with an object. This is acceptable in any society and no one complains.
What's the difference? Do you suggest that women do all the work in an intimate relationship?

[barnasha]

since Dan's points were all invalidated, I guess he went off browsing anti-Islamic sites to find more stuff to try to slander us with.


I no longer respond to Dan as if he might listen to my points, or have an honest discussion, but I do so for the record, so that others who might find this thread will see that some of us know the facts, and that a lot of this nonsensical and pathetic attempts to slander others' cultures


Here is another translation. Check it against the Arabic text if you doubt it's sound.

besides, maybe if i post it twice, Dan will actually read it. But I guess anything that proves he is wrong is not worth reading, to him. that's his problem.

MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter,*

*Lit., "more on some of them than on the others".- The expression qawwam is an intensive form of qa’im ("one who is responsible for" or "takes care of" a thing or a person). Thus, qama ala l-mar’ah signifies "he undertook the maintenance of the woman" or “he maintained her" (see Lane VIII, 2995). The grammatical form qawwam is more comprehensive than qa’im, and combines the concepts of physical maintenance and protection as well as of moral responsibility: and it is because of the last-named factor that I have rendered this phrase as "men shall take full care of women".

... and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded.**

**Lit., "who guard that which cannot be perceived (al-ghayb) because God has [willed it to be] guarded".

And as for those women whose ill-will***

***The term nushuz (lit., “rebellion”- here rendered as "ill-will") comprises every kind of deliberate bad behaviour of a wife towards her husband or of a husband towards his wife, including what is nowadays described as "mental cruelty"; with reference to the husband, it also denotes "ill-treatment", in the physical sense, of his wife (cf. verse 128 of this surah). In this context, a wife's "ill-will" implies a deliberate, persistent breach of her marital obligations.

you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them;**** and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

****It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim). According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da’ud, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn ‘Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum). When the above Qur’an-verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da’ud, Nasa’i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi’i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.

[Dan Zebiri]

You wish Barny, you just WISH, that my point was invalidated...

But the very opposite is the truth... Actually, you invalidated nothing in my posts about violence in Islam relating to muslim men beating their wives based out of the Quranic injunction itself to DO SO !

This practice of wife-beating is the reality of Muslim family life across the Islamic world, and is common place in real life...:

http://mixmode.blogspot.com/2006/10/...e-beating.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_...ouses_in_Islam

Even the records and research of the Who Health Organization itself confirm ths fact..:

"..The World Health Organization reports high levels of domestic abuse in Muslim countries with, for instance, over half of all Palestinian women reporting being beaten in the previous year. Not only do more Muslim women report being beaten than most non-Muslim women, the frequency of such beatings is usually much higher as well.

""..In some recent high-profile cases, Muslim women have had the courage to publicize their mistreatment at the hands of their husbands, in hopes that public condemnation of wife-beating will end toleration of the practice (see Rania al-Baz)."

So, muslim husbands do do, as they are told, and they ARE TOLD TO BEAT THEIR WIVES clearly from the Quran...! It is a permission granted them from the very source of Islamic injunctions - the Quran itself!

No matter what the interpretators are manipulated to say, to try and water down its impact, the reality of wife-beating in actual life, on the women, in the Islamic world is ALREADY WELL-KNOWN and an ESTABLISHED FACT!

My point is only 'invalidated' if it was not true in the world of reality on the ground!

That is, the actual actions of Muslims, in line with the command/injunction found in the Quran, is the proof of the pudding. That it is not merely a 'light beating nor is it a 'last resort' or even a 'caring action' BUT simply to beat and to scourge their muslim wives.

Also, surah 4 verse 3, the Quran teaches that men may take up to 4 wives, AND they are also allowed to sleep and have sexual intercourse with ANY OTHER WOMAN 'THEIR RIGHT HAND POSSESSES' -meaning those women OTHER THAN their own wives that work for them and/or are in their household.

Just last month, a Muslim religious teacher in Singapore with 3 wives, instructed his 2nd & 3rd wives to abet with him and get their teenage daughters to have sex with their own father!

This went on for some time, and resulted in a couple of preganancies and ABORTIONS by the daughters, until, having enough of this abuse, one of them reported the incestous affairs to the Police..

The Ulema - religious teacher father was unrepentant and actually used Surah 4 v.3 to justify his incestous actions with his daughters!

He claimed that since they were his daughters he could do as he wished with them, in line with this Quranic verse -they 'belonged to him'.

He was punished under the secular laws of Singapore.

Regards, Dan.

[barnasha]

You wish Barny, you just WISH, that my point was invalidated...

the first two words of your response indicates that your post is more about posturing and about YOU versus ME than paying attention to the points being made, which makes for a poor (if not non-existent) debate.

But the very opposite is the truth... Actually, you invalidated nothing in my posts about violence in Islam relating to muslim men beating their wives based out of the Quranic injunction itself to DO SO !

This practice of wife-beating is the reality of Muslim family life across the Islamic world, and is common place in real life...:

http://mixmode.blogspot.com/2006/10/...e-beating.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_...ouses_in_Islam

Even the records and research of the Who Health Organization itself confirm ths fact..:

"..The World Health Organization reports high levels of domestic abuse in Muslim countries with, for instance, over half of all Palestinian women reporting being beaten in the previous year. Not only do more Muslim women report being beaten than most non-Muslim women, the frequency of such beatings is usually much higher as well.

""..In some recent high-profile cases, Muslim women have had the courage to publicize their mistreatment at the hands of their husbands, in hopes that public condemnation of wife-beating will end toleration of the practice (see Rania al-Baz)."

So, muslim husbands do do, as they are told, and they ARE TOLD TO BEAT THEIR WIVES clearly from the Quran...! It is a permission granted them from the very source of Islamic injunctions - the Quran itself!

With all due respect, that's a laughable non-sequitur. A is true, A is somehow related to B, therefore there is a direct link or causality between A and B

To simply claim that Islamic countries have problems with domestic violence is to basically trivialize the problem - domestic violence, especially when women are the targets, is a huge problem throughout this world.

To use that in a hateful way to make a cheap shot against Islam is really a desperate move.

There are plenty of women in predominantly Muslim societies working to solve the problem and help the victims of domestic violence. I only wish one of them would catch you talking about their religion like this so you would be humbled.

No matter what the interpretators are manipulated to say, to try and water down its impact, the reality of wife-beating in actual life, on the women, in the Islamic world is ALREADY WELL-KNOWN and an ESTABLISHED FACT!

My point is only 'invalidated' if it was not true in the world of reality on the ground!

That is, the actual actions of Muslims, in line with the command/injunction found in the Quran, is the proof of the pudding. That it is not merely a 'light beating nor is it a 'last resort' or even a 'caring action' BUT simply to beat and to scourge their muslim wives.

Also, surah 4 verse 3, the Quran teaches that men may take up to 4 wives, AND they are also allowed to sleep and have sexual intercourse with ANY OTHER WOMAN 'THEIR RIGHT HAND POSSESSES' -meaning those women OTHER THAN their own wives that work for them and/or are in their household.

no it doesn't, I have addressed that fallacy elsewhere.

the quran does not teach what you, the avid reader of anti-Islamic hate sites, think it does.

I would say you are the least biased or educated of authorities on the matter, and your reliance on third party hate documents is testament to this.

Just last month, a Muslim religious teacher in Singapore with 3 wives, instructed his 2nd & 3rd wives to abet with him and get their teenage daughters to have sex with their own father!

This went on for some time, and resulted in a couple of preganancies and ABORTIONS by the daughters, until, having enough of this abuse, one of them reported the incestous affairs to the Police..

The Ulema - religious teacher father was unrepentant and actually used Surah 4 v.3 to justify his incestous actions with his daughters!

the ulema would be the consensus of the scholars, show me where such slanderous accusations could be justified, you may find that is hard to do when you must stray out of the fantasy world created by bigoted, anti Islamic "hate" sites.

if you don't want to back up your claim, stop moving on to making more claims and leave the conjecture for the bar or the whorehouse, but leave this forum clean so that we can have more civil discussions.

He claimed that since they were his daughters he could do as he wished with them, in line with this Quranic verse -they 'belonged to him'.

He was punished under the secular laws of Singapore.

Regards, Dan.

[Dan Zebiri]

No cheap shots on this one, Mr.barnsha.. ! Not at all.

You anger is showing because I have already shown from the WHO - World Health Organisation - data, information that backs the significantly higher rates of wife-beating and domestic violence in Islamic countries. I never made up cheap shots to prop up anything!

Whore house? Bar?? Whatever for..?? Why do I need to spread gossip for, especially when it has to do with a real social menace and crime in a civil modern society like Singapore? Use your head, dear friend, don't lose it, ok. Especially in your blind affections for Islam, o Islamophile.

Let me find such an organisation you seek - Sisters in Islam in Malaysia - a significantly Islamic and orthodox sunni islam advocacy group in the region.

Heres their website:

http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersin...s/04011997.htm

and the above is the link to issues of domestic violence in Muslim families they are advocating to deal with and to overcome - BUT NEVER TO TRIVIALIZE - as you are fond of accusing me!

This article quotes at least SIX times the occurence of wife abuse and violence in it, and they are working toward resolving such abuses throuigh the islamic sharia courts in the country. Thats in 1997, given the slowness and tardiness by which these sharia courts respond in 'protecting muslim womens' rights', favoring in the majority of cases, the male muslim position instead. It is pathetically slow and painfully long-drawn out exertions for these divorced, abused and violently violated muslim women, before they actually obtain the justice - from islamic courts- that is finally due to them.

But I doubt if you can really appreciate and come to terms with such things, having fallen head over heels with Islam and Islamophilia.

Theres absolutely NO NEED for me to be 'proud' in highlighting the abuses muslim women routinely suffer - hugely in silence- at the hands of their physically abusive husbands - who have the Quranic sanction on their sides to beat and scourge their wives physically.

These men do it to their wives because the Quran tells them so. Thats how it grows, and to assert that all this is simplistic, is simply proving the height of your ignorance...!

Regards, Dan Zebiri.

the first two words of your response indicates that your post is more about posturing and about YOU versus ME than paying attention to the points being made, which makes for a poor (if not non-existent) debate.




With all due respect, that's a laughable non-sequitur. A is true, A is somehow related to B, therefore there is a direct link or causality between A and B

To simply claim that Islamic countries have problems with domestic violence is to basically trivialize the problem - domestic violence, especially when women are the targets, is a huge problem throughout this world.

To use that in a hateful way to make a cheap shot against Islam is really a desperate move.

There are plenty of women in predominantly Muslim societies working to solve the problem and help the victims of domestic violence. I only wish one of them would catch you talking about their religion like this so you would be humbled.




no it doesn't, I have addressed that fallacy elsewhere.

the quran does not teach what you, the avid reader of anti-Islamic hate sites, think it does.

I would say you are the least biased or educated of authorities on the matter, and your reliance on third party hate documents is testament to this.



the ulema would be the consensus of the scholars, show me where such slanderous accusations could be justified, you may find that is hard to do when you must stray out of the fantasy world created by bigoted, anti Islamic "hate" sites.

if you don't want to back up your claim, stop moving on to making more claims and leave the conjecture for the bar or the whorehouse, but leave this forum clean so that we can have more civil discussions.

[barnasha]

No cheap shots on this one, Mr.barnsha.. ! Not at all.

You anger is showing because I have already shown from the WHO - World Health Organisation - data, information that backs the significantly higher rates of wife-beating and domestic violence in Islamic countries. I never made up cheap shots to prop up anything!

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey. (The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, May 1999 )

Whore house? Bar?? Whatever for..?? Why do I need to spread gossip for, especially when it has to do with a real social menace and crime in a civil modern society like Singapore? Use your head, dear friend, don't lose it, ok. Especially in your blind affections for Islam, o Islamophile.

Let me find such an organisation you seek - Sisters in Islam in Malaysia - a significantly Islamic and orthodox sunni islam advocacy group in the region.

just because point out the fact that your sole agenda is to find something that makes islam look bad, instead of being an intelligent debater with no ulterior motives, does not make me an "islamophile" as you say, it makes me a lover of truth, since i point out the intentions of your arguments and their (ir)relevance for what they are

Heres their website:

http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersin...s/04011997.htm

and the above is the link to issues of domestic violence in Muslim families they are advocating to deal with and to overcome - BUT NEVER TO TRIVIALIZE - as you are fond of accusing me!

I am not fond of your behavior in the least, I feel sad for you because you are doing nothing to improve things, by demonizing the faith of 1.5 billion people instead of pointing out that some people are not following it correctly, which would be the correct thing to do.

This article quotes at least SIX times the occurence of wife abuse and violence in it, and they are working toward resolving such abuses throuigh the islamic sharia courts in the country. Thats in 1997, given the slowness and tardiness by which these sharia courts respond in 'protecting muslim womens' rights', favoring in the majority of cases, the male muslim position instead. It is pathetically slow and painfully long-drawn out exertions for these divorced, abused and violently violated muslim women, before they actually obtain the justice - from islamic courts- that is finally due to them.

But I doubt if you can really appreciate and come to terms with such things, having fallen head over heels with Islam and Islamophilia.

Theres absolutely NO NEED for me to be 'proud' in highlighting the abuses muslim women routinely suffer - hugely in silence- at the hands of their physically abusive husbands - who have the Quranic sanction on their sides to beat and scourge their wives physically.

These men do it to their wives because the Quran tells them so. Thats how it grows, and to assert that all this is simplistic, is simply proving the height of your ignorance...!

Regards, Dan Zebiri.

there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

when i showed you that your slander about the quran was wrong, now you resort to seeking some studies that somehow corroborate your whimsical correlation with domestic violence and post-Muhammadian Islam

correlate all you want, but domestic violence is a problem in christian and "secular" countries too.

[Dan Zebiri]

Hi Barn,

The corroborative information I refered to is not any ordinary one, it was, and still is exhaustingly researched by an Islamic non-governmental organisation (NGO) Sisters In Islam (SIS) which is also an Islamic advocacy movement trying to uplift the rights and conditions for women, especially MUSLIM women!

In the 1997 report furnished above, SIS honestly confirms the widespread abuse of muslim women in the south-east asian region, particularly Malaysia and its surroundings. This abuse is physical, mental and emotional kinds, particularly 'physical violence/violations' on Muslim women.

This is more significant simply due to the fact that Malaysia is also neigbor to the world's largest Islamic country (by population); Indonesia.

You also said:
".. your slander about the quran was wrong, now you resort to seeking some studies that somehow corroborate your whimsical correlation with domestic violence and post-Muhammadian Islam..correlate all you want, but domestic violence is a problem in christian and "secular" countries too. .."



I slander not your beloved Quran! But was sincerely being 'gut-level' honest about it! Something that your misguided devotion in it has covered your eyes and heart with a thick dark veil!

So you're unable to call a spade, A SPADE, period!

What I did was to identify the violence in the Quran for what they are - violence and unwarranted forcefulness!

And there are countless verses after verses in the Quran to that very effect AND to be followed and carried out by the faithful ummah ('nation') of Islam.

Wife-beating in Sura 4/34 is a prime example of this, deprivation of the fundamental rights and identity of Women-folk is another.

What are real and actual incidences and proofs to that very effect , you fancifully and whimsically try to summarily dismiss as 'lies and statistics'.

Also, you make another unfortunate flaw in judgement. That so-called 'Christian nations' also exhibit this same problem of violence to their wives & women..! May I remind you, WHAT Christian injunction is there, in the Christian Holy Book, the Holy Bible, OR the Gospel in it, that calls and enjoins the "scourging of 'rebellious' wives'" ? As found in Sura 4/34?? - Read MM Pickthall's translation of the Quran, which is much more accurate & HONEST.

Answer: NONE..!

So, you have made an erroneous comparision with the 'christian nations' reasons for wife abuses and/or physical violations against women.

The religious and Scriptural sources and origins for enjoining such physical abuse and more than tacit endorsement for male supremacy and domination over Women are just NOT THERE In the Bible or Gospel, but are explicitly enjoined and taught by the Quran.

Thats the difference! Its CLEAR as night and day...So, Think again, Barney.

Wasalaam, Dan.

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey. (The Comonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, May 1999 )



just because point out the fact that your sole agenda is to find something that makes islam look bad, instead of being an intelligent debater with no ulterior motives, does not make me an "islamophile" as you say, it makes me a lover of truth, since i point out the intentions of your arguments and their (ir)relevance for what they are



I am not fond of your behavior in the least, I feel sad for you because you are doing nothing to improve things, by demonizing the faith of 1.5 billion people instead of pointing out that some people are not following it correctly, which would be the correct thing to do.



there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

when i showed you that your slander about the quran was wrong, now you resort to seeking some studies that somehow corroborate your whimsical correlation with domestic violence and post-Muhammadian Islam

correlate all you want, but domestic violence is a problem in christian and "secular" countries too.

[barnasha]

Hi Barn,

The corroborative information I refered to is not any ordinary one, it was, and still is exhaustingly researched by an Islamic non-governmental organisation (NGO) Sisters In Islam (SIS) which is also an Islamic advocacy movement trying to uplift the rights and conditions for women, especially MUSLIM women!

In the 1997 report furnished above, SIS honestly confirms the widespread abuse of muslim women in the south-east asian region, particularly Malaysia and its surroundings. This abuse is physical, mental and emotional kinds, particularly 'physical violence/violations' on Muslim women.

This is more significant simply due to the fact that Malaysia is also neigbor to the world's largest Islamic country (by population); Indonesia.

And those muslims agree with me that domestic violence is wrong and is not part of Islam - something you prefer to disagree with as it would not support your agenda, which is to malign Islam, not something more genuine like help humanity.

I'm sure they are against domestic violence regardless of whether the abuser is "muslim" or not.

You also said:
".. your slander about the quran was wrong, now you resort to seeking some studies that somehow corroborate your whimsical correlation with domestic violence and post-Muhammadian Islam..correlate all you want, but domestic violence is a problem in christian and "secular" countries too. .."


I slander not your beloved Quran! But was sincerely being 'gut-level' honest about it! Something that your misguided devotion in it has covered your eyes and heart with a thick dark veil!

Your accusations about what it said were proven to be baseless. Your honesty in conveying your opinion is not the point of contention here.

So you're unable to call a spade, A SPADE, period!

No, you're calling a heart a spade...

What I did was to identify the violence in the Quran for what they are - violence and unwarranted forcefulness!

and I showed how you were wrong - and if it was not so, why have you not addressed my refutation of your arguments?

And there are countless verses after verses in the Quran to that very effect AND to be followed and carried out by the faithful ummah ('nation') of Islam.

Wife-beating in Sura 4/34 is a prime example of this, deprivation of the fundamental rights and identity of Women-folk is another.

Already showed you to be wrong here - you are evading my refutation, perhaps because I am right and if you addressed it, you would be shown to be wrong.

If not, why don't you address my clear refutation of your assumption?

What are real and actual incidences and proofs to that very effect , you fancifully and whimsically try to summarily dismiss as 'lies and statistics'.

Again, you are confusing history and/or using your own misinterpretation of something to justify its further misinterpretation.

Also, you make another unfortunate flaw in judgement. That so-called 'Christian nations' also exhibit this same problem of violence to their wives & women..! May I remind you, WHAT Christian injunction is there, in the Christian Holy Book, the Holy Bible, OR the Gospel in it, that calls and enjoins the "scourging of 'rebellious' wives'" ? As found in Sura 4/34?? - Read MM Pickthall's translation of the Quran, which is much more accurate & HONEST.

Answer: NONE..!

Again, already proved this point to be totally incorrrect

You ignored that proof, so I assume you concede that you are wrong, and are just simply denying it.

(Given your history of a tendancy to irrationally slander and malign your percieved enemies, rather than be a good debater, I cannot say I am suprised)

So, you have made an erroneous comparision with the 'christian nations' reasons for wife abuses and/or physical violations against women.

The religious and Scriptural sources and origins for enjoining such physical abuse and more than tacit endorsement for male supremacy and domination over Women are just NOT THERE In the Bible or Gospel, but are explicitly enjoined and taught by the Quran.

Thats the difference! Its CLEAR as night and day...So, Think again, Barney.

Wasalaam, Dan.

Maybe you missed it, but the main argument here is that a particular Quranic verse says a certain thing. I refuted this assumption clearly, and your ignorance of that refutation only goes to show that I was right!

[Dan Zebiri]

Very sorry to disappoint you, AGAIN, Barney, BUT THERE WERE ABSOLUTELY NO REFUTATIONS that you made to my points relevant to wife-beating and endemic violence in the Quranic injunctions!

You made lots of hot denials, sweeping under the carpets, red-herring ad hominems about my so-called 'islam hating'...but NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL that removed my fundamental arguments for the violence and prevalent injustice that is still taught and enjoined in and by the Quran!

Nice try, but nothing worth thinking about were found in your so-called 'arguments - not by a long stretch.

Wasalaam, Dan.

[barnasha]

Very sorry to disappoint you, AGAIN, Barney, BUT THERE WERE ABSOLUTELY NO REFUTATIONS that you made to my points relevant to wife-beating and endemic violence in the Quranic injunctions!

You made lots of hot denials, sweeping under the carpets, red-herring ad hominems about my so-called 'islam hating'...but NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL that removed my fundamental arguments for the violence and prevalent injustice that is still taught and enjoined in and by the Quran!

Nice try, but nothing worth thinking about were found in your so-called 'arguments - not by a long stretch.

Wasalaam, Dan.

What point did you have to make? That the quran says that "wife beating" is permissible? Should I go dig up my points about how the text actually does not say that?

If pointing out that you are reading something that is not in the text is not substantial, then the text itself is not substantial, and thus your argument had no weight to begin with

If so what is your point? Blithely stating that I made "no refutations" and said "nothing substantial" will not make your points carry any more weight

so what exactly were your points?

please, respond with your own points and not those you pasted from your favorite website

[Dan Zebiri]

Hello again islamophilic Barney,

If the Quran really does not say what it means or mean what it says in Sura 4/34, then there would be no need to discuss it at all!

But the fact that verse 34 DOES SAY 'Scourge them..." ie (muslim) men can beat up their wives - NOT WITH handkerchiefs or toothpicks but really beat and scourge her into submission to HIM!

Look at the following Hadith (sunni, orthodox) that confirms the FACT of wife-beating in the Muslim world:

Here is a Hadith from Bukhari vol. 7, # 715, that supports the case - wife beating:
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you."



The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

Let's note several items from this Hadith.

1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord.

2) The Muslim women were suffering more than the non-Muslim women (via Aisha's comment), note it is said in the plural. This tells you just how good Muslim women back then really had it. Things were so bad for them, that they had to "support" each other because they were being abused in one way or another.

3) The woman was badly bruised.

4) Muhammad did not re-prove the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the woman for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was bruised,

In the countries near me - all Muslim majority places,yo9ung would-be Muslim couples MUST attend pre-marital counselling (only 2 days long).

What are taught to them includes - for the would-be MUSLIM HUSBAND, lessons on HOW TO BEAT HIS WIFE PROPERLY!

Sounds funny, yes, but it is the TRUTH!

Just HOW do you beat your Muslim wife up 'properly??

Muslim husbands are supposed to beat up their disobedient wives NOT on their faces, but on their buttocks and their thighs. NOT with handkerchiefs or silly things like that, but with the BARE HANDS.

I suppose, that if the bruise form the wife-beating turns green (like in the Hadith above) then, it cannot be seen if the beating was on her buttocks and/or thighs. Unlike on her FACE, where her relatives can see it all!

You call Islam a humane or a just religion ??! Far from it!! If it were just, then the beaten up wife can retaliate (in self-defence) to her abusive muslim husband, but that is not allowed in Islam!

What a shame! In this day and age!!

Wasalaam, Dan.



Dan.

What point did you have to make? That the quran says that "wife beating" is permissible? Should I go dig up my points about how the text actually does not say that?

If pointing out that you are reading something that is not in the text is not substantial, then the text itself is not substantial, and thus your argument had no weight to begin with

If so what is your point? Blithely stating that I made "no refutations" and said "nothing substantial" will not make your points carry any more weight

so what exactly were your points?

please, respond with your own points and not those you pasted from your favorite website