Can any muslim try explaining these 'peculiar' islamic Hadiths?

[mastralvarado]

Attention? No I am trying to understand, and no I don't get it and you are doing a poor job of explaining. I think it is you who don't get it. You are so use to hostility and have become so defensive that you do not recognize when someone is truely trying to understand. Why don't you try explaining things instead of making accusations as to my motivations.

Hi BigSplit,

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You truly want to know more about the religious/historical/cultural background of Islam from a reliable source of information. I would recommend going to a mosque and talking to real life Islamic scholars. As Barnasha has already pointed out, by referring to the word Muslim is by definition one who surrenders to G-d (Alla-h is His general name in arabic such as saying G-d is "Di-s" in spanish).

In order to comprehend Islam, you must understand that the Qur'an is the arabic story of Muhammed (PBUH). It was written down or memorized by his apostles and in so it does not classify as an orthodox nor unorthodox practice. As books over the years and centuries have had a negative or positive impact on the temperament of humanity with even tragic consequences, on the contrary, the revelation of Allah seeks to improve a person's character in a way that the psalms of the Tanach (Old Testament) do, but only if a person sings them with sincerity. As will be pointed out out later, a muslim as I understand it can also be one who is immersed in ignorance about the truth but even then still follows the Command of the Lord of Hosts regardless of their religious/cultural background.

Before entering into the details about my perception of Islam please consider this definition of personality.
Our character is formed from our genetic code and our temperament is what other people or our environment have taught us. Both character and temperament constitute our personality. I prefer to see our character as being our qualities and our temperament as our quantities of acquirements in knowledge.

If you consider quantitative accomplishments in temperament more valuable than qualitative talents in your character, you will no doubt find the Qur'an repulsive or even 'false' because of the pieces of the puzzle that don't fit (I will not 'lie' to you). I do warn for you that even Christian virtue books such as Paul's G-d-is-love books (Acts, Romans and Epistles), have inconsistencies in both qualitative (qualifications, characteristics, verbal references) and quantative (grammar, numerics, etc.) aspects. I, as a matter of fact, consider Islam as the anti-orthopraxis that Paulinian Christianity has so stealthily introduced into Abrahimic religious practices.
In order to understand the implications of reading these books, there are several. On the side of Christian virtue books, there is an effect of thinking what G-d's will is and also a knowing G-d feeling through Jesus. On the contrary, the Qur'an makes the psalms look uninspired in comparison (I can imagine how much more inspired if read and recited in Arabic). The genetic effects of reciting the Psalms or the Qur'an is hardly tangible except in qualities that genuine people now a days posess(given genetics is a relatively new technology).

For example, I met this girl named Ligia and she told me why she converted to Islam being ex-catholic and all. She and her sister were part of the church choir and she told me she converted after meeting with their muslim neighbours which treated them with the upmost kindness. What do you think is the real reason she converted to Islam? It was the fact that she sang in church with sincerity.

Rgds,

me

[heisonly1]

Too bad, Mast, that you have such a limited and abysmally shallow understanding of "will' as I had posted...!! I never meant "will' as in the 'last will and testament' as you ignorantly & hastily try to point out...!!! Sheeeesshhh... ...pheeeww...phheeewww!!

What I meant was, God's will as His divine purposes, plan/s and agenda for His creation and His creatures-us! If we were made capriciously to just be tested arbitrarily by a distant deity then our lives are no different than the other non-spiritual beings who came into being for no apparent meaningful reasons.

But, if we were made to have a uniquely special and divine purpose in relationship with our Creator-God, then that makes all the difference in our beginning to come to know what is our purpose for being and Who this Creator is personally so we could relate to Him as His beloved creatures. Meaning that we have our WORTH because we were uniquely created by God in this vast Universe and so have a special purpose and place in it!

For me, our worth, including our sense of self-worth is to be derived from our relationship with and knowing this God and Lord of the Universe, Who created us with the capacity to know Him, yet not exhaustively - for He is infinite and we are finite beings. It was He that invested this sense of worth in us, and so we have the responsibility to respect and uphold this dignity each person has before God; being a human being He made with a spirit and a soul which distinguishes and separates Human beings from all the other animals.

So, we are not profane nor impure before this God, but are all equally significant and precious to Him by virture of the fact that He has created us for a unique relationship with Himself, distinct from that of the other animals, as it is only we, apart from all the other species of God's creation; possess a sense of relationship with this Creator!

Thats what in a nutshell, I meant as God's will for mankind.

Dan.

According to the Greek Gospel of Matthew, Jesus supposedly said,

As he explained: “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

Jesus also supposedly said it is far more important to concentrate on what comes out of your heart than what you put into your mouth. He explains: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (verses 21-23).

So Danny boy the wickedness and blasphemy you utter from your heart in defiance of the ordinances and ways of God Almighty, especially if those utterances are confirmed or followed up with actions, makes you spiritually unclean or impure person!

From an Islamic perspective, in verse 9:28 impurity specifically carries an exclusively spiritual meaning, that refers to those that utter and adhere to way of polytheism " .The reference to the uncleanliness of the polytheists is not to their physical condition but to the uncleanliness of their hearts.

Given clearly your impure utterances in defiance of God Almighty as reflected in your saying that God is comprised of three distinct eternal ‘persons’ that shares the same essence of divinity that DO NOT form one being, at leat according to the biblical scriptures, is a clear manifestation of polytheism in the highest degree and given that you confirm your profane utterances with actions as indicated through your acts of worship of three eternal subsisting personal deities, then according to the Quran and Bible you are justifiably a polytheist which makes you spiritually Najasun impure and unclean.

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): “If you love God then follow me, God will love you and forgive you your sins. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”


"O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! do not exaggerate in your religion: Nor say of God except the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word (CLICK #2 ), which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not "Three" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one : Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs."

"Christ does not distain to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself."

"But to those who believe (have faith) AND do deeds of righteousness, He will give their rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: BUT THOSE WHO ARE DISDAINFUL AND ARROGANT, HE WILL PUNISH WITH A GRIEVIOUS PENALTY; NOR WILL THEY FIND, BESIDES GOD ANY TO PROTECT OR HELP THEM."

"O mankind! verily there hath come to you a manifest proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest. "

"Then those who believe in God, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by a straight way." (Quran - Sura 4:171-5)

Muhammad Asad translated verse 9: 28 thus:

"O you who have attained faith! Those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God are nothing but impure: and so they shall not approach the Inviolable House of Worship… ."

Explaining the verse Muhammad Asad commented:

"The term najas ("impure") occurs in the Quran only in this one instance, and carries an exclusively spiritual meaning (see Manar X, 322 ff.).To this day, the Bedouin of Central and Eastern Arabia – who, contrary to the modern town-dwellers, have preserved the purity of the Arabic idiom to a high degree – describe a person who is immoral, faithless or wicked as najas. [Muhammad Asad, The Message of the Quran, Dar-Al-Andalus, Gibraltar, 1980, Footnote 37, p 261].

Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan in their joint commentary of the Quran explained this verse 9: 28:

"The word Najasun is used only for those persons who have spiritual impurity e.g., Al-Mushrikum" [Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, The Noble Quran, Dar-us-Salam Publications, Saudi Arabia, December 1995, Footnote 2, p 281].

Moulana Abul Kalam Azad explaining verse 9:28 commented:

"In this verse the reference to the uncleanliness of the polytheists is not to their physical condition but to the uncleanliness of their hearts. Islam does not regard the person or the body of anyone as unclean. Every man as man stands on the same footing as every other human being. It is why it has prohibited untouchability and does not single out any section of humanity as untouchable. In fact, it is clear from the recorded history of the Prophet that the Prophet maintained social relationships with not only the People of the Book, the Jews, but with the polytheists of his time. He used to dine with them and accept their invitations and also offer invitations to them. History has even recorded he at times had allowed them to stay in his own mosque at Madina" [Moulana Abul Kalam Azad, The Tarjuman Al-Quran, Kitab Bhavan, New Delhi, India, 1990, Volume-3, pp 17-18].

Mufti Muhammad Shafi explaining verse 9:28 in his commentary of the Quran stated:

"At the time of the conquest of Makkah a delegation of the tribe of Shaqiq came to meet Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Prophet asked them to wait in the Masjid al Haram. These people were still then non-Muslims. The Companions of the Prophet raised objection to this saying that these tribesmen are unclean to which the Prophet replied: The mosque shall not become dirty by their impurity (Jassas).

"From this Hadith it becomes clear that Quranic description of polytheists (Mushrik) as unclean is linked with denial of Allah (Kufr) and spiritual impurity related to associating partners with Allah (Shirk)" [Mufti Muhammad Shafi, Quranaul Kareem (Bengali tr. of Tafsir-e-Mareful Quran- abridge), Khademul Haramine King Fahd Quran Printing Complex, Madina, Saudi Arabia, p265].This quotation is free English rendering from Bangla. The original Tafsir of Mufti Muhammad Shafi is in Urdu.

Moulana Sayyid Abul Ala Mawdudi explaining verse 9:28 commented:

"That 'the polytheists are unclean' does not imply bodily impurity; rather it is their beliefs, morals, deeds, practices and customs which are unclean." [Moulana Sayyid AbulAla Mawdudi, Towards Understanding the Quran, The Islamic Foundation, U.K, 1990, Vol. III, p200].

Some scholars explaining verse 9:28 commented that the polytheists were unclean for they went naked around Kabah and indulge in evil practices and devil works like gambling, offering sacrifice to stones, divination by arrows and consuming intoxicants.

[Dan Zebiri]

LOLL!! Badger boy...

Before you enthusiatically pontificate on and pompously spew out even much more such blind and arrogant and filthy non-sense ...YES!! Nonsense..

Just focus on answering on the absurd, unsound, insane and even clearly ludicrous Hadiths (you people consider 'valid'... ) that form the basis of the ahlul sunnah wa'l jumaah orthodoxy and orthopraxy, BUT that even the more honest sunni Muslims - people like Dr.Rashad Khalifa reject and call them for what THEY REALLY ARE - UTTER RUBBISH!!

SO FAR, NONE of your pitiful and shameless defenses of those Hadiths that I listed make any sense whatsoever!!

Why should a teaching that insanely profiles black dogs as demons & devils EVER BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY??

The effect of this hadith above is, the majority of Muslims (Sunni) have an inordinate and unsound aversion, even hatred for BLACK DOGS - and dogs in general... just because of this kind of crazy Hadiths!!

Why should the nonsensical fairy-tale about the stoning of the 'adulterous she-monkey'' ever be taken seriously EITHER??

Tell us - what other practices of Islam THAT MONKEYS SHOULD FOLLOW?? What other things must She-monkeys be avoiding according to the Sunna of Muhammad???

Honestly, the Muslims of the Anti-Hadith movement are much more bolder, BRAVER AND HAVE MORE INTEGRITY THAN YOURSELF, HEISONLY1!!

Its no wonder that Islam today belongs to the stone age, when it blindly continues to espouse such ideas of these kind of Hadiths...! Its just such a sham, truly...!!

Regards, Dan.


[quote=heisonly1;1886807]According to the Greek Gospel of Matthew, Jesus supposedly said,

As he explained: “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

Jesus also supposedly said it is far more important to concentrate on what comes out of your heart than what you put into your mouth. He explains: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (verses 21-23).

[barnasha]

The hadiths are not teachings that black dogs are demons, etc, they are stories of what the prophet supposedly said, and are to be taken into context with things such as the validity of the people who reported such a thing was said, as well as more authentic things such as the quran.

Dan, what makes you think a 'hadith' is a teaching to be espoused in Islamic theology? the hadith are just 'so and so said', which we use to help understand the core teachings of islam, such as monotheism.

If believing in God is so strange to you, it's no wonder you do not understand Islam.

Until then, stop focusing on what you perceive to be strange to try to discredit something, while overlooking all the core parts of it.

It's like saying Jesus was crazy because you saw a crazy Christian on the street corner - it's both ignorant and disingenuous

[heisonly1]

Dan Zebiri - LOLL!! Badger boy...

Before you enthusiatically pontificate on and pompously spew out even much more such blind and arrogant and filthy non-sense ...YES!! Nonsense..

Dan, you really got some serious unresolved issues !!!! Is it that time of the month for you !!!

Take it easy girlfriend, calm down, breath easy and just relax !

Just focus on answering on the absurd, unsound, insane and even clearly ludicrous Hadiths (you people consider 'valid'... ) that form the basis of the ahlul sunnah wa'l jumaah orthodoxy and orthopraxy, BUT that even the more honest sunni Muslims - people like Dr.Rashad Khalifa reject and call them for what THEY REALLY ARE - UTTER RUBBISH!!

Ahhh !! if you've noticed danny boy I have began to respond and successfully refuted your feeble counter arguments here. In time, I will dismantle ALL of them,inshAllah! I have already referred you to references that expose the ignorance of rashad khalifa. He is a nobody when it comes to the study of the sciences of hadith.Refer to M. M. Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, if you want to have a clue about the sciences of hadith. You referring to rashad khalifa as an authority in sciences of hadith is enough to know you have absolutely no clue about what your rambling about!

SO FAR, NONE of your pitiful and shameless defenses of those Hadiths that I listed make any sense whatsoever!!

Still waiting for you to counter respond to those I have responded to danny boy !!!

Why should a teaching that insanely profiles black dogs as demons & devils EVER BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY??

The effect of this hadith above is, the majority of Muslims (Sunni) have an inordinate and unsound aversion, even hatred for BLACK DOGS - and dogs in general... just because of this kind of crazy Hadiths!!

Why should the nonsensical fairy-tale about the stoning of the 'adulterous she-monkey'' ever be taken seriously EITHER??

Tell us - what other practices of Islam THAT MONKEYS SHOULD FOLLOW?? What other things must She-monkeys be avoiding according to the Sunna of Muhammad???

I'll get to these hadiths in due course with detailed responses.Stay tuned !

Honestly, the Muslims of the Anti-Hadith movement are much more bolder, BRAVER AND HAVE MORE INTEGRITY THAN YOURSELF, HEISONLY1!!

Honestly, you know nothing about the sciences of hadith until you at least consult the works of M. M. Azami's "Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature," and his refuation of western orientalist attacks on hadith literature - On Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence - This in-depth study presents a detailed analysis and critique of the classic Western work on the origins of Islamic law, Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence. Azami's work examines the sources used by Schacht to develop his thesis on the relation of Islamic law to the Qur'an, and exposes fundamental flaws in Schacht's methodology that led to the conclusions unsupported by the texts examined. This book is an important contribution to Islamic legal studies from an Islamic perspective.- http://www.amazon.com/Schachts-Origi...429900-8874546]

Its no wonder that Islam today belongs to the stone age, when it blindly continues to espouse such ideas of these kind of Hadiths...! Its just such a sham, truly...!!

It's only a sham for those like you who wonder in ignorance with no knowldge about hadith and it's sciences and application.

According to the Greek Gospel of Matthew, Jesus supposedly said,

As he explained: “What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

Jesus also supposedly said it is far more important to concentrate on what comes out of your heart than what you put into your mouth. He explains: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (verses 21-23).

[Dan Zebiri]

Ohh! Actually, I am very calm and cool, here, badger boy... !!

Its just YOU and your shamful even shameful defence of the NONSENSICAL AND ABSURD HADITHS OF ISLAM, that is providing me with such 'entertaining humor' that I can't get over being so amused by the absurd way you are trying - desperately and pitifully, to prop up such insane and unsound Hadiths!

I still find your so-called defence of the 'fly-wing medicine' espoused by your Hadiths just as ludicrous and comical and as desperate as the 'Camel urine' medicine one you try to peddle here...

Gve it up, Badgerina, you know that the Hadith and Quran are NO TEXT-BOOKS OF SCIENCE OR EVEN OF MEDICINE...!! So, stop trying to vainly clutch at ridiculous STRAWS to prop up such rubbished Hadiths 'Sahih'..!!

Rubbished by thinkers and Muslims like Dr.Rashad Khalifa, Dr.Kassim Ahmad, and many other rational orthodox muslims like them!! These scholars have actually studied deeply those 'proofs for these Hadiths' and still have NOT FOUND THEM TO BE CONVINCING !

Look here for Dr.Kassim Ahmad's Book : http://www.amazon.com/Hadith-Re-eval...3777544&sr=1-1

Its called 'Hadith - A Re-Evaluation'.

and get this Book before you jabber on about the 'validity of the Hadiths', when even your fellow orthodox Muslim thinkers REJECT THEM COMPLETELY!

Also Already rubbished by the Shia Musilms who totally reject all the 6 Collections of the Hadith sahih of Sunni Islam!

Use your god-given brain and think, Badger..!!!

Wasalaam, Dan.




[quote=heisonly1;1890538]Dan, you really got some serious unresolved issues !!!! Is it that time of the month for you !!!

Take it easy girlfriend, calm down, breath easy and just relax !

[heisonly1]

Dan Zebiri

Its just YOU and your shamful even shameful defence of the NONSENSICAL AND ABSURD HADITHS OF ISLAM, that is providing me with such 'entertaining humor' that I can't get over being so amused by the absurd way you are trying - desperately and pitifully, to prop up such insane and unsound Hadiths!

More barking but no direct counter responses!! Your to predictable Danny boy !!!

I still find your so-called defence of the 'fly-wing medicine' espoused by your Hadiths just as ludicrous and comical and as desperate as the 'Camel urine' medicine one you try to peddle here..

Again more barking but not direct counter responses to my replies that clearly substantiated the scientific miracle confirmed in the hadith regarding the Fly and it's antidote you denied, and also the medical miracle of animal/camel urine you knew nothing about.

Barking is not a refutation danny boy! How many days did you loose sleep when you read the scientific/medical evidences that totally debunked your ignorance and arrogance about the truth contained in the hadith!! Judging by your barking here, it's driving you MADDDDD !!!!!!

Gve it up, Badgerina, you know that the Hadith and Quran are NO TEXT-BOOKS OF SCIENCE OR EVEN OF MEDICINE...!! So, stop trying to vainly clutch at ridiculous STRAWS to prop up such rubbished Hadiths 'Sahih'..!!

That's right Danny boy! The Quran and hadith are not "TEXT-BOOKS OF SCIENCE OR EVEN OF MEDICINE" However you know well that the Quran and hadith DO contain scientific/Medical miracles/benefits, as you have witnessed here regarding the fly and it's antidote as an transparent example. Give it up Danny boy !! your living in denial of the truth of the hadith that is driving you insane !!!!

Rubbished by thinkers and Muslims like Dr.Rashad Khalifa, Dr.Kassim Ahmad, and many other rational orthodox muslims like them!! These scholars have actually studied deeply those 'proofs for these Hadiths' and still have NOT FOUND THEM TO BE CONVINCING !

Look here for Dr.Kassim Ahmad's Book : http://www.amazon.com/Hadith-Re-eval...3777544&sr=1-1

Its called 'Hadith - A Re-Evaluation'.

and get this Book before you jabber on about the 'validity of the Hadiths', when even your fellow orthodox Muslim thinkers REJECT THEM COMPLETELY!

Also Already rubbished by the Shia Musilms who totally reject all the 6 Collections of the Hadith sahih of Sunni Islam!

Danny boy! I have read kassims dubious book many years ago. You can read it online.

There is absolutely nothing within kassim's thesis that underminds the methodology and premises advocated by Muhammad Mustafa Azami that totally trash both kassim's and western orientalist mode of argumentation reflected in their thesis.You need to read Muhammad Mustafa Azami's books if you want to seriously debate sciences of hadith that you have absolutely no clue about as reflected in the feeble references you refer us to!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...ustafa%20Azami

Use your god-given brain and think, Danny boy.!!!

May Allah remove the stubborn hardness of your heart.Ameen !!!

Dan, you really got some serious unresolved issues !!!! Is it that time of the month for you !!!

Take it easy girlfriend, calm down, breath easy and just relax !

[barnasha]

the ahaadith (accounts, narrations) seem absurd, because you are thinking they are religious edicts.

but you are taking out of context quotes and thinking they are religious edicts


hadeeth means narration

quotations out of context can seem quite absurd..

your problem is you are looking at quotes out of contexts and trying to assume that it's some religious dogma....

it is merely the case that your own reasoning, not based in the hadith sciences, is erroneous.

If i say,

"Evil is like a blackness, like the color black, because it has no light in it. It takes light away from the situation and leaves someone in the dark. So if blackness comes to you, run from it"

then someone makes a hadith (narration) of what I said, and recalls that I said

"If blackness comes to you, run from it"

Then 1500 years later, everyone speaks French. in the future, French is a much different language and this phrase translates into something weird which doesn't make sense in the year 3500.

Then, your ancestors will come along and say I was crazy, because someone remembered part of what I said, and it didnt make sense out of context, no less translated into a futuristic French language.
----

If you read the text in arabic, and if you knew the context in which the hadeeth was recorded, maybe then you'd have a leg to stand on when you said Muhammad didnt make sense.

But for now, it is only you who doesn't make sense, you are making some random conclusions based on (often poorly) translated recollections of a few sentence fragments which were preserved through a chain of transmitters - overlooking the hundreds of thousands of other statements which contradict your conclusions.

The problem with those 100,000 other hadeeth is that they don't fit your agenda, which is to slander a certain people, because you don't like them (or whatever your motive is....)

or are you actually seeking to learn about Muhammad and his people, instead of just trying to make them look bad because you get a kick out of slandering other people based on your own stereotypes and bigoted views?

I will assume the latter is not the case.

[mastralvarado]

This reply is in response to Dan Zebiri's posts I presume.

[barnasha]

yes, of course.

[Dan Zebiri]

Not just Kassim Ahmad's rejection of all the 'valid Hadiths' of Islam, but ALSO the SHIA 's total rejection of them, should tell you - and US ALL, just how unreliable and absurd it is to have a whole religious group of people - sunni Muslims, to follow such ridiculous and ludicrous teachings and injunctions whole sale!

Shias are also the other large group of Muslims, besides the Sunnis, in case you have forgotten, Badgerina...:))

Dan

[heisonly1]

Dan Zebiri - Not just Kassim Ahmad's rejection of all the 'valid Hadiths' of Islam, but ALSO the SHIA 's total rejection of them, should tell you - and US ALL, just how unreliable and absurd it is to have a whole religious group of people - sunni Muslims, to follow such ridiculous and ludicrous teachings and injunctions whole sale!

Shias are also the other large group of Muslims, besides the Sunnis, in case you have forgotten, Badgerina...:))

Yes Daniella, there are significant differences of acceptance of the hadith literature amongst the Muslim umma. I am on the opinion, based on my personal research and study in the field of sciences of hadith and analyzing the differences of opinion and debates amongst Muslims regarding the reliability/veracity of hadith traditions that many, not all, hadiths are reliable and do exemplify the actual words and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad (p).

I stand to be corrected, if through research i discover that there is more compelling evidence to reject Hadith traditions.I have read many 'scholarly refutation' advocated by Muslims that reject hadith traditions and to date I see no reasonable doubt to reject hadith. Other Muslims will differ, that's fine I accept that.This area of debate amongst the Muslims will continue until the day and if no consensus is reached amongst the muslims, we leave it to Allah to judge between those that differ on this matter.

You presented some hadith here that I personally accept as reliable and accurate and you requested I have offer explanations to these hadiths you interpret as 'NONSENSICAL AND ABSURD HADITHS' .

Now I have offered explanations substantiated with scientific and medical evidence that exposed your ignorance on the explanation/meaning and benefits of these hadiths.

From your perspective, irrespective of whether these hadiths are reliable or can be linked to the lips of Prophet Muhammad (p), in other words, let's assume, for argument sake, these hadiths are dubious, meaning they do not originate from the Prophet (p) does that consequently rule out the possibility that the information about the Fly and it's antidote and Animal/camel urine is false!?

As I have illustrated, no it does not ! Irrespective of where these hadiths originated from, the fact remains that whoever uttered them was totally consistent with contemporary Scientific and medical research.

Let's assume these statements did not originate from Prophet Muhammad(p). Can you please refute/critique or counter respond to the amazing Scientific and Medical evidence presented here that disprove the proclaimations stipulated in the hadiths I commented on. Merely barking about unreliability of hadith and differences of opinion amongst Muslims is not a refutation of the Scientific and Medical facts presented here Daniella.

If you don't believe the hadiths are reliable or do not originate from the Prophet Muhammad, that's fine.You are entitled to your opinion that is shaped by the miniscule degree of exposure you've had in researching sciences of Hadith as reflected by your amusing references.

If however you don't believe that the information contained within these hadiths are scientifically and Medically accurate or reliable, then please produce a scientific and medical counter response or critique that refutes the evidence i presented here Daniella !!!!

Remember, no typical useless barking please, just a scientific and medical refutation will suffice !!!

[barnasha]

[QUOTE=Dan Zebiri;1896545]Not just Kassim Ahmad's rejection of all the 'valid Hadiths' of Islam, but ALSO the SHIA 's total rejection of them, should tell you - and US ALL, just how unreliable and absurd it is to have a whole religious group of people - sunni Muslims, to follow such ridiculous and ludicrous teachings and injunctions whole sale!
/QUOTE]

as i pointed out in the previous post, hadeeths are not religious injunctions, so any 'rejection' would be a rejection of authenticity, not a rejection of religious matters.

there is an entire science (actually, I believe there are many sub-sciences) devoted to interpreting the ahadeeth and making a conclusion from it and applying that the the practice of religion.

[barnasha]

let's drop the name calling guys, it's rather childish

we are all here to learn. if not, i suggest playing video games, it's a less stressful way to play games.

[John3rd]

What Is The Meaning The Word Hadiyth

Hadiyth - -- Hadiyth come from the word Hadatha meaning '' Existence Began To Be Had A Newly For The First Time '' Its plural Ahaadiyth . Ahaadiyth are supposedly records of actions , Utterance and customs of The Prophet Muhammad ; Any action done in his presence and the presence of his companions . As the Koran didn't give detains on certain practical matters . The faithful , The follower of Muhammad ,

Relied on the example of Muhammad thus when confronted with A situation in which A certain decision was necessary . Men would relate what The Prophet Muhammad did in the same or similar case . The most reliable Narrator's account would be accepted . As time went on . Many such Narrations were Collected and Written down by several writers . Hence . Forthforming Patterns For Future Generations .

However , Unscruputous Men , Seeking To Advance Their Own Ideas And Cause Disunity In The Communities . Also Produced Their Own Versions Of Hadiyth . If became necessary to record the Ahaadiyth according to the Reliability Of Both The Narrator And The Transmitter . The Authenticity Of Transmission Because As Entirely Separate Sunject And Even In This , There Were Still Many Disagreement . In All The Hadiyth has ---

Cause Much Sectism In Islaam ; And The Koran Itself Even States , ''' Not To Form Into Sects , ( Koran 6;159 ) The Koran Is The Best Hadiyth ( Koran 4;87 )

Any Hadiyth that's not back up with the Quraan are words of men and not of Allahu Subhaanahu Wa Ta ' Ala