Can any muslim try explaining these 'peculiar' islamic Hadiths?

[Dan Zebiri]

Then, even better still, all the 'valid' hadiths of Islam actually qualify those 'injunctions of God' as you so nicely put it,

Muslims MUST carry out those 'injucntions of Allah' AS GUIDED BY THE HADITHS.

Otherwise, they are not true or orthodox Muslims! Thats what "ahli SUNNA wa'al jema'a" stands for, does it not?

Muslims are enjoined TO PRAY in the Quran, but HOW TO pray is not spelt out in proper details in the Quran. hence they must follow the how-to intsructions SPELT OUT IN THE HADEETHS.

Muslims are enjoined TO FAST in the Quran, but HOW TO fast is not spelt out in proper details in the Quran. hence they must follow the how-to intsructions SPELT OUT IN THE HADEETHS.

Etc, etc ...etc With all the other aspects of the quranic injunctions.

In Islam, there is a 'proper way' to do it, and an 'improper way' to do it ie.to obey God's commands. Hence the 'sunna' of (sunni) islam

So, muslims must follow the sunna of prophet Muhamad if they want to obey Allah correctly and their deeds found 'acceptable' before Allah. And ALSO because the Quran also already said that 'in Muhamad Muslims have the best example to follow..' (talk about circular reasoning!!)

These sunna of Muhd are ALL FOUND IN THE HADITHS!

Thats why its a non-negotiable for sunni muslims to follow its' teachings & precepts (of the Hadiths).

The biggest problem for Islam is simply that the two largest sections of Muslims are in complete and total division and mutual condemnation, about what constitutes the true Hadeeths totally.

Thats the bottom line which makes Islam such a confused and contradictory religion!

Wasalaam, Dan.

A Hadith is not an injunction, nor is there anyone here on Earth who can give a command that matters more than what God commands.

What God commands matters most, not any so called Islamic scholar.

wouldn't you agree?



well, I can understand your objection to these political differences, and I would also liek to point out that 'shia' and 'sunni' are explicitly forbidden to be part of the "deen" of Islam, or the way of life of obeying God (cf Quran 6:159)

[barnasha]

Dan, please condense your arguments into concise, clear sentences, without all the surrounding chatter.

It makes your posts much easier to read.

If you have a strong point, there is no need to embellish it.

Muslims MUST carry out those 'injucntions of Allah' AS GUIDED BY THE HADITHS.

If so, you could probably find one authentic hadith that says that

but you won't, because following the SUNNAH is the tradition, not the VESSELS in which the SUNNAH came to us (ahaadith)

if you are contending that the REPORTS (hadith) of Muhammads life are his way of life (SUNNAH), can you tell me how he could do anything without someone first reporting about it?

If you want to be more precise, you can say the quran tells muslims to follow God's sunnah and the prophet's sunnah, not "hadith".

many muslims make the same mistake.

[OfficialPro]

If Hadiths are not necessarily to be followed, then why in blazes do Muslim cab drivers refuse to take blind passengers with their guide dog? Muslim cab drivers have been known to do so, saying that to be anywhere near a dog or to have it in his cab is "against his religion."

Muslim Cab driver gets his company SUED for his actions

Since what is said about dogs is NOT in the Quran but is in Hadith, shouldn't the Muslim Cab driver realize he has some leeway here? Or maybe he's just using it as an excuse.

[Dan Zebiri]

Hello my friend, maybe its your own less than clear understanding that has made you claim about my so-called chatter..!!

Theres no need for me to embellish anything at all! I was just giving you the approporiate examples to back up and clarify my point.

You now are now mixing up the 'vessel' with the contents of the Sunna itself, but that makes no difference to my points at all & whatsoever.

Try obeying the quranic commands without the guidance of the Hadeeths - and see what happens to your Islam!

The fact still remains unchanged - the hadiths/sunna qualify the quranic injunctions and guide Muslims HOW TO carry those quranic injunctions out.

BIG Problem is: The Sunni muslims' sunna are totally rejected & debunked by your fellow muslims - the ahli Shia'. MORE than 164 Million muslims altogether.

Moreover, today, even the very own ahli Sunna (or Sunni muslims) themselves are coming into agreement with the ahli Shia muslims - and these Sunni Muslims themselves are condemning the usage and emulation of the Sunna and Hadeeths of Muhammad!!

These Sunnis are bold enough to openly declare that these so-called valid hadeeths are themselves none other than SATANIC products and evil influences upon the muslim world! Remember-these are your very own fellow SUNNI MUSLIMS - not the Shias'

So, dont come and invite us to Islam when it is such a confused religion and say that 'the religiopn is simple..'

We dont need such a contradicing religion!

Wasalaam, Dan

Dan, please condense your arguments into concise, clear sentences, without all the surrounding chatter.

It makes your posts much easier to read.

If you have a strong point, there is no need to embellish it.



If so, you could probably find one authentic hadith that says that

but you won't, because following the SUNNAH is the tradition, not the VESSELS in which the SUNNAH came to us (ahaadith)

if you are contending that the REPORTS (hadith) of Muhammads life are his way of life (SUNNAH), can you tell me how he could do anything without someone first reporting about it?

If you want to be more precise, you can say the quran tells muslims to follow God's sunnah and the prophet's sunnah, not "hadith".

many muslims make the same mistake.

[barnasha]

Hello my friend, maybe its your own less than clear understanding that has made you claim about my so-called chatter..!!

yes, and what about it?

Theres no need for me to embellish anything at all! I was just giving you the approporiate examples to back up and clarify my point.

You now are now mixing up the 'vessel' with the contents of the Sunna itself, but that makes no difference to my points at all & whatsoever.

right, like mixing up a riverbed and the water that fills it

Try obeying the quranic commands without the guidance of the Hadeeths - and see what happens to your Islam!

islam existed before any quran - the quran says so

"hadeeths" existed before muhammad too, plenty of those in the bible, if you know what the word HADEETH means

"your Islam" doesn't make much sense to me

The fact still remains unchanged - the hadiths/sunna qualify the quranic injunctions and guide Muslims HOW TO carry those quranic injunctions out.

your seemingly whimsical conclusions and assertions are only factual in that you have stated them, that does makes them well-argued points

BIG Problem is: The Sunni muslims' sunna are totally rejected & debunked by your fellow muslims - the ahli Shia'. MORE than 164 Million muslims altogether.

Moreover, today, even the very own ahli Sunna (or Sunni muslims) themselves are coming into agreement with the ahli Shia muslims - and these Sunni Muslims themselves are condemning the usage and emulation of the Sunna and Hadeeths of Muhammad!!

These Sunnis are bold enough to openly declare that these so-called valid hadeeths are themselves none other than SATANIC products and evil influences upon the muslim world! Remember-these are your very own fellow SUNNI MUSLIMS - not the Shias'

So, dont come and invite us to Islam when it is such a confused religion and say that 'the religiopn is simple..'

when did I "invite you to Islam" ?

what do the sunni and shias differences have to do with the ideology that predates them both? i think you have your dates messed up

We dont need such a contradicing religion!

Wasalaam, Dan

I don't care what religion you are, I am merely addressing what you post in here.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barn, What about it? Then stick to the points and respond to my posting properly as given below:

Muslims MUST carry out those 'injucntions of Allah' AS GUIDED BY THE HADITHS.

Otherwise, they are not true or orthodox Muslims! Thats what "ahli SUNNA wa'al jema'a" stands for, does it not?

Muslims are enjoined TO PRAY in the Quran, but HOW TO pray is not spelt out in proper details in the Quran. hence they must follow the how-to intsructions SPELT OUT IN THE HADEETHS.

Muslims are enjoined TO FAST in the Quran, but HOW TO fast is not spelt out in proper details in the Quran. hence they must follow the how-to intsructions SPELT OUT IN THE HADEETHS.

Etc, etc ...etc With all the other aspects of the quranic injunctions.

In Islam, there is a 'proper way' to do it, and an 'improper way' to do it ie.to obey God's commands. Hence the 'sunna' of (sunni) islam

So, muslims must follow the sunna of prophet Muhamad if they want to obey Allah correctly and their deeds found 'acceptable' before Allah. And ALSO because the Quran also already said that 'in Muhamad Muslims have the best example to follow..' (talk about circular reasoning!!)

These sunna of Muhd are ALL FOUND IN THE HADITHS!

Thats why its a non-negotiable for sunni muslims to follow its' teachings & precepts (of the Hadiths).

The biggest problem for Islam is simply that the two largest sections of Muslims are in complete and total division and mutual condemnation, about what constitutes the true Hadeeths totally.

Thats the bottom line which makes Islam such a confused and contradictory religion!

As for your fanciful theorising claims that

"Islam existed before any quran - the quran says so"

Is another bit of your circular reasoning that is not worthy of any serious consideration whatsoever!

You are just parroting your narrow and baseless islamic beliefs and tenets to me here, and sadly for you I have no reason at all to buy such propoganda statements like "Islam existed before any quran..bla bla blah... !! "

WHY? Simply because it is YOUR statement of faith and belief which to me IS SIMPLY FALSE! And there is totally NO sound evidence whatsoever for such beliefs.

To me, Islam is the Islam that Muhammad brought to the world in the SEVENTH Century A.D. No Islam as found in the Quranic teachings ever existed in the time of Adam and Eve, or Abraham, Moses or King David, or in the time of Jesus Christ.





[quote=barnasha;2053726]yes, and what about it?

[barnasha]

Muslims MUST carry out those 'injucntions of Allah' AS GUIDED BY THE HADITHS.

not exactly true - at least not very precise. one is to follow the practices of the prophets, but those are not the accounts or 'ahadith'

we learn about the practices and life (SUNNAH) of the prophet Muhammad via accounts (HADEETH) related by those near to him.

my stories about you Dan, do not make up what you do and who you are. don't apply a double standard here to Muhammad just because you hate Islam...

anyway, respond to my post instead of these meandering diatribes... repeating yourself does not make your case

[Dan Zebiri]

Barn,

Hahaha!! Now its you who indulges in name-calling and useless profiling, by calling me an 'islam hater' helps push your point somehow, yes... !

Can you prove to me / us here, that sunni muslims can do salat (obligatory prayer) in any number of ways as there are muslims today?

Can you also prove to me / us here, that sunni muslims can do saum (obligatory fasting) in any number of ways as there are muslims today??

Can you prove to me / us here, that sunni muslims can pay the zakat (obligatory alms-giving) in any number of ways as there are muslims today???

Can you prove to me / us here, that sunni muslims can make the pilgrimage to mekah in any number of ways as there are muslims today?!??

And the list goes on...!

Your HONEST and real answer would be NO. If you had any integrity. Because the way to do these things are already set for all muslims 'in concrete' if you like, expressed in the Hadiths and the ones which you claim 'valid hadiths' reflecting the sunna or example/tradition of Muhamad.

The WAY to conduct such islamic things and commands like those I listed above are not found in the Quran! So thats why the teachings of the Hadiths are compulsory to be followed .

The Quran cannot stand by itself, it epends on the hadiths of the Sunni muslims to be implemented in the practical world and lives of Muslims everywhere.

The shiites muslims, by denying and debunking all the SUNNI hadiths - ie.,the Hadeeth collections of muslims like yourself, Barn, negate their validity for more than 164 million Muslims in the Islamic world today!

The ANTI-Hadith Muslims, WHO ARE SUNNI MUSLIMS in background, who declare that all the hadeeth - including the so-called 'valid orthodox ones' are NOTHING MORE THAN RUBBISH AND SATANIC INVENTIONS -And so MUST be rejected totally! Refer to:

http://www.submission.org/had-sunna.html

Previously you posted that these people are a 'small group' and therefore a fringe section. I can conclude that by you calling them fringe, the MAINSTREAM muslims therefore MUST follow the hadiths/sunna of Muhammad.

Thus my point above about the hadiths qualifying the Quran is already validated..!

BUT, HOW Can we as non-muslims, ever believe or trust in the sunna and hadiths of Muhamad, when Muslims themeselves - ie.Shiite muslims, the Anti-hadith Sunni muslims etc, DISAVOW, REJECT AND SPURN THE VERY SAME SUNNA / HADITHS...!!?

This is sufficient proof positive, that Islam is, below the surface; a VERY CONFUSED RELIGION.

NOT merely confusing to outsiders, but more significantly, CONFUSED and confusing to its own followers.

Such internal inconsistencies in Islam seriously calls into question its authenticity and severely doubts if at all it is a 'true religion that is a blessing(so-called) unto Mankind'!!

Wasalaam, Dan.

not exactly true - at least not very precise. one is to follow the practices of the prophets, but those are not the accounts or 'ahadith'

we learn about the practices and life (SUNNAH) of the prophet Muhammad via accounts (HADEETH) related by those near to him.

my stories about you Dan, do not make up what you do and who you are. don't apply a double standard here to Muhammad just because you hate Islam...

anyway, respond to my post instead of these meandering diatribes... repeating yourself does not make your case

[barnasha]

Your HONEST and real answer would be NO.

if you're going to have a conversation with yourself, why not just use a text editor? no internet connection required...

[Dan Zebiri]

Barn, trying to be cynical, I see, unfortunately getting you NOWEHERE....

Address my points above and you will be getting somewhere with your theories, barney...

You either cannot understand or are in denial mode to the facts, here!

Wasalaam, Dan.

if you're going to have a conversation with yourself, why not just use a text editor? no internet connection required...

[barnasha]

Barn, trying to be cynical, I see, unfortunately getting you NOWEHERE....

Address my points above and you will be getting somewhere with your theories, barney...

You either cannot understand or are in denial mode to the facts, here!

Wasalaam, Dan.

if you want people to address your points, you should at least be willing to reciprocate

[Dan Zebiri]

And I dare say the same about you, too.

Please refer my last post to you above...

Dan.

if you want people to address your points, you should at least be willing to reciprocate

[barnasha]

why not respond to post #135?

[Dan Zebiri]

This is my answer to your #135..:

Well, to you muslims of course the Quran represents Allah's commands, fine. BUT you seem to have forgotten of brushed aside the FACT that THE HOW TO Aspect or part, of HOW TO obey or carry out those Quranic commands and injunctions are ALL QUALIFIED BY THE HADITHS!

These Hadeeths (or Sunna) instruct the muslim faithful how to execute the Quranic commands to Pray, Fast, give alms, go on Pilgrimage etc etc.

Here, I use Hadeeths AND Sunna interchangeably because they BOTH belong together.

And of course, I refer to the 'valid hadeeths' and not the ones which muslim scholars call 'false hadeeths' .

BUT I do not separate / split them (ie.Hadith AND Sunna) up ARTIFICIALLY as there is no real functional or orthopractic justification to do so absolutely.

Dan.

A Hadith is not an injunction, nor is there anyone here on Earth who can give a command that matters more than what God commands.

What God commands matters most, not any so called Islamic scholar.

wouldn't you agree?

well, I can understand your objection to these political differences, and I would also liek to point out that 'shia' and 'sunni' are explicitly forbidden to be part of the "deen" of Islam, or the way of life of obeying God (cf Quran 6:159)

[barnasha]

This is my answer to your #135..:

A Hadith is not an injunction, nor is there anyone here on Earth who can give a command that matters more than what God commands.

What God commands matters most, not any so called Islamic scholar.

wouldn't you agree?

well, I can understand your objection to these political differences, and I would also liek to point out that 'shia' and 'sunni' are explicitly forbidden to be part of the "deen" of Islam, or the way of life of obeying God (cf Quran 6:159)

Well, to you muslims of course the Quran represents Allah's commands, fine. BUT you seem to have forgotten of brushed aside the FACT that THE HOW TO Aspect or part, of HOW TO obey or carry out those Quranic commands and injunctions are ALL QUALIFIED BY THE HADITHS!

what do you mean, "you", and "you muslims"?

this argument is not about me

you completely ignored my IMPERSONAL and valid points about what hadith and sunnah mean, still mindlessly using the words without knowing what they mean.

STOP DOING THAT.

go pick up a first-year college textbook on Islamic religion.

These Hadeeths (or Sunna) instruct the muslim faithful how to execute the Quranic commands to Pray, Fast, give alms, go on Pilgrimage etc etc.

Here, I use Hadeeths AND Sunna interchangeably because they BOTH belong together.

And of course, I refer to the 'valid hadeeths' and not the ones which muslim scholars call 'false hadeeths' .

"false account" makes no sense, unless you mean "fabricated account"

still you are using these terms without any apparent knowledge of their meaning and application in Islamic law, I suggest you consult some bona fide academic literature.

BUT I do not separate / split them (ie.Hadith AND Sunna) up ARTIFICIALLY as there is no real functional or orthopractic justification to do so absolutely.

Dan.

you did not answer the question posed in post #135