Who makes the choice?

[phat8594]

My whole point too was that it must be read in context. The context of Romans will end up being justification by faith, rather than justification by works.

Absolutely, we are justified by faith and not of works.

That being said, the book of Romans also must be understood within the cultural context and audience to which it was written. 'Works' did not mean anything we do, including decisions to trust God. Rather it referred to the works based righteousness held by the Jewish people of the day. That is why, even in the immediate verse it says:

Romans 2:6-7
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life


IOW, eternal life is not earned, but freely given - and it is given to those who in well doing seek for glory, honor and immortality. IOW, it is freely given to those who have faith. (and this faith is not unconditionally given as a gift, but something that is freely exercised by anyone -- Jew or Gentile -- for God is NOT partial)

[phat8594]

I do not believe in "unconditional election." I do believe in "unmerited election." There is a difference.

That is great -- but again, that text doesn't even talk about 'election' and the word 'predestinate' does not even refer to a sort of 'unmerited election'. (I too agree that our salvation is not merited by us).

My point, however, is for us to really drill down to what the text says and how the text uses a word -- as opposed to how our theology or culture defines a word prior to the text.

[The Remonstrant]

Absolutely, we are justified by faith and not of works.

That being said, the book of Romans also must be understood within the cultural context and audience to which it was written. 'Works' did not mean anything we do, including decisions to trust God. Rather it referred to the works[-]based righteousness held by the Jewish people of the day.

[Billj139]

The New Covenant is the one God keeps. BTW only those who names remain in the book of life will not be condemned in the judgement (Revelation 20:11-15).

So how are those children's names in the book of life?

I am of the persuasion that on the basis Christ died for all (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14) That all names are in the book of life, being removed (Psalm 69:27-28) not being born again¹ (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 3:5; 21:7.). And that Jesus being the vine and all are in Him being the vine and must be born again¹ to remain in Him (John 15:6).

[1] ". . . I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." -- Mark 10:15. [John 3:3.]

I believe in predestination since God is timeless.
Time, to God is like another dimension that he can move along like we can move back and forth in space.
We have free will but God can see the result of our free will into our future.
We are free to make the choice at any point in our lives but God knows what that choice will be.

[phat8594]

Exactly. And this is why doing the basic exegetical work of determining audience and understanding what the writer is getting across is so important.

Romans is set against a Jewish culture that put a LOT of importance of their 'chosen-ness' (i.e. their Jewishness). IOW, they put a LOT of importance on their ancestry (with ties to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob) and the works of the Law.


The Jews of the day believed that these were the mean by which the promises of God were inherited. Paul, of course, by means of the Holy Spirit does a great job dismantling these beliefs -- and in turn shows how faith is the means by which the promises of God were inherited, and how the children of promise are the 'children', not of fleshly means (ancestry or law), but of faith. IOW, the REAL children of Abraham are the children who follow in his faith.



Romans 4:13-17
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith

[rstrats]

Billj139,
re: "We have free will but God can see the result of our free will into our future. We are free to make the choice at any point in our lives but God knows what that choice will be."

Does He have any input with regard to the creation of an individual?