Is Christian opposition to abortion inconsistent with upholding the death penalty?

[Teallaura]

Well, you got the financial part right. Read the OT - God clearly establishes the death penalty.

God is not evil. God establishes the death penalty. Therefore the death penalty is not evil (substitute 'immoral' - it still works). You're arguing the reverse but that requires an a priori assumption that the death penalty is evil. It's not a compelling argument to those who disagree with that premise.

(Yeah, my argument has the same problem but since Christians already accept my premise it has greater strength in this setting.)

If you don't care that someone committed mass murder the first person you need to reform is you. I'm against the death penalty but I find that line of argumentation disgusting and idiotic. If killing innocent people doesn't bother you then why does killing guilty people?

Justice that ignores the victim is not justice; justice that centers on the victim is also not justice. If you can't strike that balance - or at least try to - you have no credibility in this kind of argument. The logical conclusion to that line would be anarchy - you're not gonna be able to pawn that one off on anyone.

Stick with the cost effectiveness argument.

[theosis10565]

Um, when did I say I didn't care about innocent people dying? I figured the fact that their lives mattered was to be assumed.

There is no perfect justice in this life. That's essentially my point. Perfect justice can only be had through God. I probably should stop citing Plato constantly...

I don't mean that God does evil, as, well, obviously He cannot. Similarly, I don't necessarily mean that the death penalty is always evil (e.g. Levitical laws and those of the Old Covenant; I do not mean these were products of man. I believe the laws in the OT were more or less meant to show us that our actions are worthy of the punishment of death because of our vile and sinful behavior which themselves bring death into the world through our sins). In light of the New Covenant, however, we should have a penal law that tries to focus more on granting criminals, even the worst of them, an opportunity for true repentance in this lifetime rather than attempting to imitate/approach God's justice, Whose "righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." We need to do what is spiritually beneficial to both the guilty and the injured (e.g. victims/family members/etc.).

As an Orthodox, I realize the Fathers have a variety of judgments on the justness of capital punishment and/or its role in the state. I don't mean to be too standoffish or seem pompous, as, again, there is some truth to it.

[joel]

...This is a duty meant for God and God alone. Our job is to adhere to Christ's hardest command: forgiveness. In the eys of God, there is no sin that cannot be forgiven; therefore, it is our job -- nay, our necessary duty -- to provide whatever aid is needed for a sinner to see the light.

Secondly, we are not unbiased judges. ...

Thirdly, it is clear both are unnatural. ...Either way, we are "playing God."

In a more practical sense, the death penalty actually costs more than life in prison.

Whether the death penalty is forbidden by Christianity or otherwise wrong or impractical does not indicate that it is inconsistent with opposition to abortion.

If someone's opposition to abortion were based merely on "it's unnatural" or "it's playing God." then yes, you are right that then the two positions would be inconsistent. But it is possible for people to have other/additional reasons for opposing abortion.

[Lightknight]

I think all Christians percieve the notion that an unborn child is someone who could not possibly have broken any laws deserving death whereas an inmate is someone (idealy) guilty of a crime deserving that punishment. Any Christian can point out that old testament Law (God's Law in that covenant) required the execution of individuals for crimes they committed. Murder was one of those crimes.

If Christians or pro-lifers base their positions on the belief that abortion is murder, or the unjust killing of human life. Then there can be no comparison to the execution of a man guilty of such a crime.

I guess the misconception is when people think that we mean that all ending of human life is wrong. But that isn't what prolifers all mean (though some do, of course).

[MarcusAndreas]

It very much is.

[joel]

It very much is.

Care to elaborate?

[Neohuman]

Yes.
Mistakes happen i.e. innocent people convicted.
God is the ultimate judge.

[Jedidiah]

I seriously doubt that innocent people are wrongly convicted multiple times for serious crimes. It is relatively rare that people who have no criminal history are executed for their first arrest.

[Jedidiah]

This entire thread shows the flaw of describing a position of "pro-life." I am no pro-life, I am anti-abortion.

[avaya]

The 10 commandments that some Christians want placed on courthouses do not have an asterisks* after thou shall not kill. Perhaps most Christians consider thou shall not kill to have an asterisks *, and think sometimes it is okay to kill. If that is the case then non-theists who call pro-life pro-death penalty Christians inconsistent are wrong.

[joel]

The 10 commandments that some Christians want placed on courthouses do not have an asterisks* after thou shall not kill. Perhaps most Christians consider thou shall not kill to have an asterisks *, and think sometimes it is okay to kill. If that is the case then non-theists who call pro-life pro-death penalty Christians inconsistent are wrong.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."
Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

[avaya]

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."
Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

dont' leave out:

The men of her city must stone her to death because she has committed such a godless act in Israel: She had sex before marriage, while she was still living in her father's house. You must get rid of this evil.

[joel]

dont' leave out:

The men of her city must stone her to death because she has committed such a godless act in Israel: She had sex before marriage, while she was still living in her father's house. You must get rid of this evil.

What is your point?
The verses I quoted were sufficient to show that the supposed inconsistency does not exist, regarding the 10 commandments.

(As an aside, it's helpful when you refer to a Biblical passage if you you cite the location.)

[avaya]

What is your point?
The verses I quoted were sufficient to show that the supposed inconsistency does not exist, regarding the 10 commandments.

(As an aside, it's helpful when you refer to a Biblical passage if you you cite the location.)

The hypocrite argument comes from Christians who want "thou shall not kill" displayed in courtrooms. It implies some type of complete moral statement, when really the Christine doctrine is more complicated.

[joel]

The hypocrite argument comes from Christians who want "thou shall not kill" displayed in courtrooms. It implies some type of complete moral statement, when really the Christine doctrine is more complicated.

So what are you saying--that in order not to be hypocritical, they must want the entire text of the Torah displayed, rather than just, say, a passage from Exodus 20?

Every state has a law that can be summarized as "Thou shall not murder." Any state could post such a notice as a summary of their law. But it is always more complicated than that. It would only appear hypocritical or inconsistent to someone who interpreted the statement simplemindedly.