What Is Man?

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm saying that if atheism/materialism is true there is no purpose for humankind. But as a Theist of course I believe we were designed for a purpose.

This is too simplist yes/no answer to conclude how humans from different cultures over time define purpose in their lives. All cultures from the Neolithic to the present have purpose in their lives and all cultures whether they are theist or not. It is apparent by the evidence that human cultures have purpose as a society or as individuals regardless of their religious beliefs.

[firstfloor]

Yes, as Hitler did, and Mao, and Stalin....

I contend that everyone acts this way. You are your own god as well but you don’t acknowledge it. When you pray, who do you think is listening except yourself? The proof that you are god is in the fact that prayer does not work.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, as Hitler did, and Mao, and Stalin....

There are no angels in human history. Calling this card as usual is a tragic fallacy.

[Tassman]

No, I'm saying that if atheism/materialism is true there is no purpose for humankind.

...and you find this notion unacceptable therefore it can't be true, is that it?

In fact we all find joy in living and love of family and friends plus enthusiasms like music or football. One doesn't need the futile hope of a post-mortem existence to provide "purpose". How pathetic is that?

But as a Theist of course I believe we were designed for a purpose.

...a belief not supported by substantive evidence.

[seer]

This is too simplist yes/no answer to conclude how humans from different cultures over time define purpose in their lives. All cultures from the Neolithic to the present have purpose in their lives and all cultures whether they are theist or not. It is apparent by the evidence that human cultures have purpose as a society or as individuals regardless of their religious beliefs.

That is not what I asked Shuny, it is about a purpose for humankind (like I said in my OP), not what different cultures subjectively decide their purpose is or is not.

[seer]

There are no angels in human history. Calling this card as usual is a tragic fallacy.

Right and in a godless universe there is no ultimate purpose for humankind - only subjective purpose, like Hitler's.

[shunyadragon]

That is not what I asked Shuny, it is about a purpose for humankind (like I said in my OP), not what different cultures subjectively decide their purpose is or is not.

Yes it is about purpose for humanity and the individual. It is relevant that the facts are people of different cultures have a purpose of humanity throughout history regardless of whether they were or are theist or not. This is simply a fact of the diversity of human history for millennia. Many if not most may not share your belief in the purpose for humanity, nonetheless they have one.

[shunyadragon]

Right and in a godless universe there is no ultimate purpose for humankind - only subjective purpose, like Hitler's.

Our universe exists as it is regardless of whether there is a God or not.

[Tassman]

Right and in a godless universe there is no ultimate purpose for humankind - only subjective purpose, like Hitler's.

Correct. There's no good reason to think the universe is anything other than "godless".

As for Hitler, his rise to power was a direct consequence of the Versailles Treaty impoverishing and humiliating the people of Germany. The signatories of the Treaty were all believers in your "godly universe" (it was a more ignorant era back then) but this didn't do the German people much good and Hitler was able to capitalise on their misery.

[seer]

Yes it is about purpose for humanity and the individual. It is relevant that the facts are people of different cultures have a purpose of humanity throughout history regardless of whether they were or are theist or not. This is simply a fact of the diversity of human history for millennia. Many if not most may not share your belief in the purpose for humanity, nonetheless they have one.

Except there is no ultimate purpose for humanity, that was Dawkins, point. We are the purposeless creation of a purposeless universe. I'm not saying that you can't make up your own purpose.

[seer]

Our universe exists as it is regardless of whether there is a God or not.

So? The discussion is about whether humanity has any inherent or ultimate purpose. And apart from God they do not or can not.

[seer]

Correct. There's no good reason to think the universe is anything other than "godless".

Well I'm glad we agree that in your godless universe humanity has no ultimate or inherent purpose.

[shunyadragon]

So? The discussion is about whether humanity has any inherent or ultimate purpose. And apart from God they do not or can not.

The problem of the ultimate purpose of humanity is a theological and philosophical issue and remains an anecdotal claim regardless of variable claims and beliefs of different cultures and beliefs of humanity. If you are a metaphysical naturalist of sorts, the ultimate purpose of humanity is the survival of the species and perpetuation of the morals, ethics and principles of human nature that help insure the survival of future generations.

[seer]

The problem of the ultimate purpose of humanity is a theological and philosophical issue and remains an anecdotal claim regardless of variable claims and beliefs of different cultures and beliefs of humanity. If you are a metaphysical naturalist of sorts, the ultimate purpose of humanity is the survival of the species and perpetuation of the morals, ethics and principles of human nature that help insure the survival of future generations.

Good so you agree with Dawkins that we are ultimately purposeless. So I don't know why you took exception with his quote, it is quite accurate for a materialist. And no, the purpose of humanity is not to survive, any more that it was the purpose of other extinct species to survive.

[shunyadragon]

Good so you agree with Dawkins that we are ultimately purposeless. So I don't know why you took exception with his quote, it is quite accurate for a materialist. And no, the purpose of humanity is not to survive, any more that it was the purpose of other extinct species to survive.

I took exception to his quote because he takes an extreme view. No the metaphysical naturalist does not necessarily believe humanity is ultimately purposeless. Again, the belief in what the purpose of humanity is too variable to be make sense in this discussion.

It would help if you cite me properly and completely.