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Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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What Is Man?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I took exception to his quote because he takes an extreme view. No the metaphysical naturalist does not necessarily believe humanity is ultimately purposeless.
    Then what is the ultimate purpose of humanity according to a metaphysical naturalist?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Then what is the ultimate purpose of humanity according to a metaphysical naturalist?
      I already provided that for you.

      If you are a metaphysical naturalist of sorts, the ultimate purpose of humanity is the survival of the species and perpetuation of the morals, ethics and principles of human nature that help insure the survival of future generations.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I already provided that for you.

        If you are a metaphysical naturalist of sorts, the ultimate purpose of humanity is the survival of the species and perpetuation of the morals, ethics and principles of human nature that help insure the survival of future generations.
        But that is not a rational statement as I have shown. Was it the purpose of past species that went extinct to survive? You are just making stuff up now. And what or who decided that this was the purpose of humanity?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          But that is not a rational statement as I have shown. Was it the purpose of past species that went extinct to survive? You are just making stuff up now. And what or who decided that this was the purpose of humanity?
          It is very much a rational statement. The past species were not rational intelligent species with some control over their own destiny. No not making anything up. This is actually simply the case for all humanity including your world view, which only extends the survival of the species into another spiritual world. The metaphysical naturalists consider their immortality in their future generations. We in reality do not know what the future holds for humanity. It could be thousands, hundreds of thousands or more years in the future especially if we develop space travel.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            It is very much a rational statement. The past species were not rational intelligent species with some control over their own destiny. No not making anything up. This is actually simply the case for all humanity including your world view, which only extends the survival of the species into another spiritual world. The metaphysical naturalists consider their immortality in their future generations. We in reality do not know what the future holds for humanity. It could be thousands, hundreds of thousands or more years in the future especially if we develop space travel.
            What? You are doing it again, taking a subjective view and running with it. There is no objective reason why we as a species should survive, and there is no ultimate purpose that concludes that we should survive. Yes Shuny, you are making stuff up again. Nature did not create us for a purpose God did.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              What? You are doing it again, taking a subjective view and running with it. There is no objective reason why we as a species should survive, and there is no ultimate purpose that concludes that we should survive. Yes Shuny, you are making stuff up again. Nature did not create us for a purpose God did.
              My answer was specific and detailed. It is obvious you will not acknowledge rational alternate view in a discussion. As I suspected our dialogue ends here.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                My answer was specific and detailed. It is obvious you will not acknowledge rational alternate view in a discussion. As I suspected our dialogue ends here.
                No Shuny, you are making stuff up again, a metaphysical naturalist may have an opinion, but that is opinion, not the ultimate purpose of humanity because nature (which created us) has no purpose for humanity - nature could care less whether we survive or not. Dawkins point was perfectly accurate.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well I'm glad we agree that in your godless universe humanity has no ultimate or inherent purpose.
                  There's no good reason to think the universe is anything other than "godless" and you have no substantive evidence to prove otherwise.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No Shuny, you are making stuff up again, a metaphysical naturalist may have an opinion, but that is opinion, not the ultimate purpose of humanity because nature (which created us) has no purpose for humanity - nature could care less whether we survive or not. Dawkins point was perfectly accurate.
                    There is no reason to believe that nature has an ultimate purpose. Mans purpose is to act, live, survive according to his nature. Insisting that man must have an ultimate purpose just because you dislike the alternative isn't a very convincing argument.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      What is Man?

                      The purpose of asking the question may determine the type of answer?...
                      If we were asking for Legal purpose, (homicide---killing an animal is different from killing a "human") scientific purpose, (classifications...etc), or determining ethical/moral principles (bioethics...etc....)

                      What is the Purpose of Man

                      If we are asking this question for ethico-moral reasons, then it may be wise to set up some parameters....in the case of Islam---this is done through the concept of Tawheed (Unity/One God).
                      Man is NOT God. Man(Creation) is dependent upon God, but God is independent of Man/Creation. The concept of "God" (One God/Tawheed) and Man promotes benefits for Man but a definition of "Man" is of no consequence one way or the other to "God". Therefore, both the theory and application of ethico-moral principles should focus on benefits "for Man". In order for us to arrive at a consistent, coherent, and comprehensive paradigm---we need to look at the micro (Man) and macro (ecology) symbiosis and their relationship to Tawheed (Unity). So, the principles and application of ethics/morality should "benefit" the interactions between Men as well as between men and "creation". "God" can serve as a unifying force/idea in these diverse interrelationships, provide higher degree of legitimacy/authority to the ethico-moral principles and motivate human beings through the promotion of our inherent desire for altruism.
                      (I am not saying that God is necessary to arrive at beneficial ethico-moral principles---but having "God" as a unifying force gives a higher degree of benefit)

                      There is an interesting idea in Islamic philosophy about the human heart and the phenomenon of nature---The human heart expands and constricts (and this pumps the blood---a vital function for the human body), likewise "nature" (or God) has abundance (khair) and restriction (sharr)---both of which are necessary for the well-being of "creation". The pairing of these two modes creates balance and harmony. Therefore, when we are speaking of "benefit", we should also pair it---to have benefit (rights) and to give benefit (responsibility).

                      If balancing rights and responsibilities in all our interactions between human beings and with all creation promotes benefits---then we can give assent to the idea of Man as caretaker/Trustee......which gives us "purpose"
                      God's will = right belief + right intentions + right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. (Khalifa/Trusteeship)

                      However, insofar as "Man" is individual, it is also important that overall personal well-being be given consideration. "Man" has 3 components, Body, Soul, Spirit---"Man" achieves inner peace when he/soul is in harmony with body and spirit. The pursuit of meaning and the needs of survival should be balanced so that they do not conflict, create inner discord.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        To survive and live as long as possible . . . is in every virus' nature, its purpose.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                          To survive and live as long as possible . . . is in every virus' nature, its purpose.
                          Indeed! The survival instinct is common to all living creatures…to the extent that that some humans even postulate eternal survival.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                            To survive and live as long as possible . . . is in every virus' nature, its purpose.
                            Purpose

                            1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
                            2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.
                            Not really, purpose suggests an intention, a goal. Nature has no goal or intention, except what haphazardly happens. Some species survive others don't, no purpose, no aim, no goal.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Not really, purpose suggests an intention, a goal. Nature has no goal or intention, except what haphazardly happens. Some species survive others don't, no purpose, no aim, no goal.
                              If god didn't exist seer, I think it would still be your "intention/purpose" to survive.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                survival may be a purpose---but if that were the only one...we would not have philosophy. As long as one of the characteristics of human nature/Man is to seek meaning---we will require a much more "meaningful" purpose for our own intellectual satisfaction. Some people (Chris Hedges, Karen Armstrong, Scott Atran...) have said that without a meaningful/glorious purpose that encourages peace....young people will seek meaning/glory in war, in battle....

                                Theism may not be the only means of creating meaningful purpose promoting peace----but it is a useful one....

                                Comment

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