Can Prayer Change the Past? Try It!

[Storico]

Here's a question, DJ: what happens when I pray for an event in the past to be changed, and another Christian's praying for that same event to NOT be changed? What happens? Which of us does God humour, and why?

I don't think that prayer works that way. Individual people don't pray to God so that we can order Him around or ask for special individual favours. Prayer isn't like that.

I still maintain what I said earlier about one little event changing history.

When you've got time, read Bradbury's story, "A Sound of Thunder". http://nickbertoglio.tripod.com/id34.html <-- It's right there. There aren't many copies on the net, so I grabbed the most readable site. The story discusses the implications of what would happen if HUMANS changed one little thing, and the consequences for our future. If God saw fit to reach into history and completely disregard the choices we've made, things would be all the more impacted whether we liked them or not.

[shadowmaster]

Heck, we all pray that all the time. Guess God has ya here for a reason.

GG told Shadowmaster that his mom said that nobody is totally worthless. One can always be a bad example. Could that be the reason for God allowing DJ to post his nonsense?.

[Doubting John]

Here's a question, DJ: what happens when I pray for an event in the past to be changed, and another Christian's praying for that same event to NOT be changed? What happens? Which of us does God humour, and why?

Then that would be no different than a farmer praying for rain today and a vacationeer praying for sunshine. Those contradictory types of prayers are already taking place.

I don't think that prayer works that way. Individual people don't pray to God so that we can order Him around or ask for special individual favours. Prayer isn't like that.

I never said it was. Remember, you should pray to help someone in the past, and you should say "Thy Will Be Done."

I still maintain what I said earlier about one little event changing history.

Then my reply is the same. Many events take place today that are changing the course of our future history too.

When you've got time, read Bradbury's story, "A Sound of Thunder". http://nickbertoglio.tripod.com/id34.html <-- It's right there. There aren't many copies on the net, so I grabbed the most readable site. The story discusses the implications of what would happen if HUMANS changed one little thing, and the consequences for our future. If God saw fit to reach into history and completely disregard the choices we've made, things would be all the more impacted whether we liked them or not.

I've seen movies like this. It's a storyland with a moral. The author is writing something that will sell. I've thought about writing a novel myself. When you do, you must write an ending with a twist at the end, a funny conclusion, or one with a moral lesson. Otherwise it wouldn't sell. Only non-authors don't get it.

Did you read through the link I provided about the nature and value of free will? I doubt it.

[Mountain Man]

So let Christians announce what they are praying for, pray it, and no matter how many times they do this, we will never see any of these prayers answered. None. The events they announce and pray for will never be changed.

Fine. I'll pray that God will stop the nuclear explosion that wiped out most of New York City on April 18, 1992. What, you've never heard of such a thing? Well, that's because God answered my prayer.

[Doubting John]

Fine. I'll pray that God will stop the nuclear explosion that wiped out most of New York City on April 18, 1992. What, you've never heard of such a thing? Well, that's because God answered my prayer.

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[FlimFlamboyant]

Oh Lord, I pray unto thee that thou wouldst preventeth DJ's mom from dropping her son on his head. Amen.

[Doubting John]

Oh Lord, I pray unto thee that thou wouldst preventeth DJ's mom from dropping her son on his head. Amen.

Why the KJV prayer here? Does it add anything to your prayers?

Cute though.

[Doubting John]

My point with all of this is simple.

Christians claim God answers prayer. But prayers about the future can be interpreted to mean anything. If a petitionary prayer comes to pass, then they count that as evidence their God exists and he answers prayer. If it doesn't come to pass then they can claim it wasn't God's will. Either way they win, correct?

But I'm trying to show that prayer can actually be tested, since there is no reason why God couldn't answer a prayer for an event in the past.

And when prayer is tested in this manner it ALWAYS FAILS!

ALWAYS.

How do you explain that?

[Mountain Man]

I see that DJ specified that we must announce what we're going to pray for before we pray. No problem. I announce now that for the next week, I will pray that God will stop the horrible plague that killed over 200,000 people in California in July of 1982. I'll start praying now. Let me know if you guys notice any changes in the past.

[Doubting John]

I see that DJ specified that we must announce what we're going to pray for before we pray. No problem. I announce now that for the next week, I will pray God will stop the horrible plague that killed over 200,000 people in California in July of 1982. I'll start praying now. Let me know if you guys notice any changes in the past.

Silly man.

Why start praying for something to be changed in the past when you don't believe it ever happened in the first place?

Why not pray for something you do believe happened in the past?

That's testable.

Claims of answered prayer such as yours will ALWAYS work, right? ALWAYS!

If these prayers always work, you should have no objection to praying to change an event that we already believe took place in the past. With such prayer power as that, you should be a prayer warrier for the past! Just think what you could do with the past!

The only reason you claim you'll do this isn't because you believe such a prayer will work. You claim this to argue against me, and that's it. For if you do believe it'll work, then you should pray that JFK was not assassinated.

Why won't you pray for JFK, but you'll pray for an event you believe never happened in the first place?

[Mountain Man]

Why start praying for something to be changed in the past when you don't believe it ever happened in the first place?

What do you mean it never happened? Just do a Google search for "1982 California plague". There are dozens of articles about it.

Hmmm... that's odd. I just did a search myself and can't find anything about it, either. Wait, does this mean God answered my prayer?

(By the way, DJ, you shouldn't take these comments any more seriously than I take your challenge, but I suspect you already know that.)

Then if these prayers always work...

I'm not sure what you mean by "work". If you mean that God must always answer prayers in the affirmative then I'm afraid that doesn't have the support of scripture, nor is there any verse that could be understood as an open invitation to unconditionally pray for anything we want and expect it to be granted every time (pay attention to the word "unconditionally"). You should also be familiar with Jesus' model to see the manner in which we should pray:

Matthew 6:9-13

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.' "

Two things to notice:

1) How little of the prayer is spent asking for things; and
2) The nature of the things asked for.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support asking for the kind of nonsense presented in your challenge.

[Doubting John]

(By the way, DJ, you shouldn't take these comments any more seriously than I take your challenge, but I suspect you already know that.)

Then offer me some reasons why you don't.

I'm not sure what you mean by "work". If you mean that God must always answer prayers in the affirmative then I'm afraid that doesn't have the support of scripture

I never said it does. I'm merely saying that you should pray for the past just like you do for the future, since there is no reason why God can't answer prayers in the past.

The Lord's prayer notwithstanding, you do believe in petitionary prayer, don't you?

There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support asking for the kind of nonsense presented in your challenge.

Nonsense? Now that's an interesting argument that is used whenever offering sound reasons fail, especially when we're talking about helping people who suffer in the past, just like we want to help people from suffering in the present and future.

Besides, I'll bet you have prayed for something in the past anyway. How often have you prayed for something even after that event has already taken place? Let's say you pray that a child safely arrived at his destination even though you pray about it all day long until you hear that he did. You already pray about the past! Many times.

So, if you think what I say is nonsense, then vow to never ever pray about the past again. If that child is supposed to arrive by plane in Dallas at 9:16 AM, then do not pray for that child after 9:16 AM. Simply wait until he calls you at 11:30 AM to tell you he made it safely. NO LONGER OFFER PRAYERS BETWEEN 9:16 AM AND 11:30 AM! DOING SO IS "NONSENSE"!

[ApologiaPhoenix]

But if we can prevent God from knowing that people didn't pray for an event in the past by praying for that event to change, then there is no reason to think we can't change the past if believers pray for that event to change. For if they do, then God will foreknow that they did if and only if they do. If they do, then God may answer their prayers. The reason the past appears not to change is because believers don't pray to have it changed, that's all.

But with this challenge of mine, maybe believers will begin praying for the past to change, and only if they do, can the past be changed. They must pray for God to change the past.

I've already dealt with Storico, earlier.

Prevent God from knowing something? Heh. Got any ideas how we could do that? Considering I'm not OVT and I do believe God knows all, I believe that from before there was time, God knew all prayers that would be prayed for all situations. That means that God worked in what is now the past knowing the prayers that would take place in the future.

Also, the challenges offered have been valid. If the past was changed, it makes sense that our memories would be changed and weblink articles etc. Thus, there's no way we could really know for sure.

I also don't believe in this idea of testing prayer. For one thing, you can only do that with petitonary prayer. How do you test a prayer of thanksgiving? How do you test a prayer of confession?

You're dealing with a person. Not a machine. The person can respond however he wants. If the prayer is not "answered" it will be argued that God does not answer prayer. If the prayer is "answered" it will be argued that it was a coincidence that would have happened anyway.

[Storico]

DJ, yes, I did check out your link on free will. It didn't address the problem of what you want people to do here. Like Nick just said (#73 in this thread), prayer isn't just a petition to God. It isn't JUST us asking Him to do stuff, and Him doing it. Not by a long shot. It's also thanksgiving, confession, sometimes just inner dialogue and meditation.

If we love God and trust Him, why should we want to test Him? Telling Him to change something in the past would be telling Him that His involvement in the human past wasn't good enough. You keep saying "pray. keep praying. nothing will happen." -- That's right, the past won't change. The past is gone. It's done. Not coming back. How, again, is that proof God doesn't hear our prayers? That God doesn't know our prayers throughout time?

You're making the mistake of thinking that Christians pray expecting to get something. No. When there's trouble, sometimes, we do pray. Not for the trouble to end, though, but for strength to get through it. For grace to help others get through it. For peace during it.

[Nang]

Like Nick just said (#73 in this thread), prayer isn't just a petition to God. It isn't JUST us asking Him to do stuff, and Him doing it. Not by a long shot. It's also thanksgiving, confession, sometimes just inner dialogue and meditation.

Exactly. Christians do not have a genie in a bottle that grants wishes. Sometimes prayer is a petition, when we are in need. We have access to the throne of grace in heaven, through our High Priest Jesus Christ, where our needs can be met.

But mostly prayer is fellowship and communication between man and God, provided and instigated by God.

God allows the sons of God the privilege of being a part of His purposes and works, which have made up all of history.

This question is from a skeptic who hates God.

IMO, he has been answered, but of course he does not comprehend what believers have said. He has simply rephrased the tired old atheist question a new way . . .where's the evidence?



Nang