John OWEN & Apostasy ...

[amishrockstar]

I have a question that I'm hoping someone can help me with (someone familiar with Owen's work)...

I'm reading Owen's "Apostasy from the Gospel" (Abridged by R.J.K. Law) and in the first part he discusses 'total apostasy' in light of Heb.6 (people knew the gospel, made a profession of faith, but turned away and openly rejected it-- these couldn't be granted repentance); what I'm wondering is what would he say about someone like Augustine who was raised by his Christian mother, given a Christian education, but he ended up turning away from the gospel to Manichaesim (he was later granted repentance)? I also wonder about guys like Adoniram Judson whose father was a minister, who knew the gospel, and went to church regularly, but he ended turning away and becoming an atheist for a time (he also became a Christian as well as an influential missionary).

Any thoughts?

[Mr. 5020]

I have a question that I'm hoping someone can help me with (someone familiar with Owen's work)...

I'm reading Owen's "Apostasy from the Gospel" (Abridged by R.J.K. Law) and in the first part he discusses 'total apostasy' in light of Heb.6 (people knew the gospel, made a profession of faith, but turned away and openly rejected it-- these couldn't be granted repentance); what I'm wondering is what would he say about someone like Augustine who was raised by his Christian mother, given a Christian education, but he ended up turning away from the gospel to Manichaesim (he was later granted repentance)? I also wonder about guys like Adoniram Judson whose father was a minister, who knew the gospel, and went to church regularly, but he ended turning away and becoming an atheist for a time (he also became a Christian as well as an influential missionary).

Any thoughts?

According to Hebrews 6, he was never truly saved.

[James Peter]

No, according to Hebrews 6 the genuine repentance and returning to the faith that countless millions have experienced after rejecting it in their late teens and early twenties is impossible. But it happens.

[Solly]

perhaps they weren't properly converted *sahm

[amishrockstar]

I think James Peter "hit the nail on the head." That's really the question that I'd like to ask Owen...
We have countless 'famous' preachers such as Spurgeon, Judson, etc. who knew the Gospel from their childhood, rejected it (because they weren't Christians), and then become Christians who are used mightily of God.

Has anyone read Owen's book "Apostasy from the Gospel"?

Also, another question that comes to mind is that Paul stated that he received "mercy because [he] acted ignorantly in unbelief..." -1Tim.1:13. But many people grow up NOT ignorant of the gospel-- some might even believe the 'truth' of it (while remaining unbelievers)-- and yet they find mercy after rejecting it.

[Solly]

I read it a long time ago, in full, not abridged (I had the 16 volume set). Owen is not good in abridgement, he says so much, and I don't think he would be guilty of such a simple error. He was the best there was on the Christian life.

Perhaps you could post an extract?

[Ormly]

Obviously, the words "enlightened and tasted of the heavenl gift" in Hebrews 6 means more than just being saved... or even being born again.

[RanRan]

We are to forgive 7 times 70...and God CAN'T?
Frankly, I find John Owen to be poison, joyless, and self-righteous. A hateful little man.

[amishrockstar]

Solly, I think I should probably try and get ahold of his unabridged works-- I'm sure there is quite a bit I'm missing. Here's a couple of short extracts from the book I'm reading that may help to put my questions about what he said into some sort of context...

" 'If they fall away'. It is supposed by the writer of this epistle that these apostates may well fall away. From the example of Peter who denied Christ and was yet renewed to repentance, we say that there is no particular sin that any man may fall into occasionally, through the power of temptation, that can bring the sinner into that state from which it would be impossible to renew him to repentance.
This 'falling away', therefore, must refer to continued persistent rebellion and disobedience to God and his Word. A man may so fall into sin as still to retain in his mind such a principle of light and conviction that brings him back to repentance and acceptance with God. To exclude such from all hopes of repentance goes against the whole tenor of Scripture truth (Ezek. 18:21; Isa. 55:7). So men, after some conviction and reformation of life, may fall into corrupt and wicked ways and continue long in those ways. One great example is the wicked king Manasseh, who in the end repented and was restored and accepted by God. So whilst there is in such persons any seed of light, or conviction of truth which is capable of being revived, so as to once again work powerfully in the soul, they cannot be looked on as apostates whom it is impossible to restore to repentance, though they are most certainly living dangerously."

He then explains the difference between "stumbling" and "falling" before coming to this short section...

"This falling away, then, must lie in a total renunciation of all the chief principles and doctrines of Christianity. Such was the sin of those who renounced the gospel to return to Judaism. This is the falling away referred to in this passage of Scripture.
For this falling away to be complete and final, this renunciation must be declared openly so that the person is seen to abandon Christianity completely for Judaism or for some other religion or to return to paganism..."

It's after reading this last section that I though "what about Augustine (he embraced Manichaeanism), Judson (he became an atheist), etc."

Any thoughts?

[James Peter]

Obviously, the words "enlightened and tasted of the heavenl gift" in Hebrews 6 means more than just being saved... or even being born again.

No, obviously they don't but if they did it would resolve the whole problem so i understand why you want to try and take the easy way out. Hebrews 6 is clearly talking about what any systematic theology would call 'salvation' - an experience of divine grace and conversion. Its just typical, people ignoring the plain meaning of the text in order to reconcile it with their own theologies. The author of Hebrews (and I'd suggest the author of the Johaninne Epistles also did) believes that those who turn away from the gospel can't turn back. The texts were written in a context where many were turning back to Judaism from Christianity (rejecting claims of the deity of Christ most likely, seeing him as no more than Messiah) and the authors are clearly saying "If you do that then you're screwed, you can't come back so think carefully about making the choice."

If we look through the OT though (or even the gospels) we see that the nature of God is to always forgive those who truely repent. Is Hebrews actually saying that somebody who turns away can't repent of that choice rather than that God won't forgive them if they do repent? Probably. But that still leaves the problem that people do/have repented of such actions and as far as anyone can tell God has accepted their repentance as valid.

[amishrockstar]

In Owen's book, he shows by comparing scripture with scripture that all the 'privilages' that these 'apostates' are given (enlightenment, tasting of the heavenly gift, etc.) are not salvific operations in and of themselves (although they are things that believers experience). His point is that these apostates are never said to be 'justified', 'in Christ', 'called by God', etc.

[James Peter]

In Owen's book, he shows by comparing scripture with scripture that all the 'privilages' that these 'apostates' are given (enlightenment, tasting of the heavenly gift, etc.) are not salvific operations (although they are things that believers experience). His point is that these apostates are never said to be 'justified', 'in Christ', 'called by God', etc.

None of which are the language of the author of Hebrews...

'Shared in the Holy Spirit' is without a doubt something that is limited to those who have been 'saved'. 'Been given the light' ('enlightened') is equally certainly in the matrix of salvific language (as in John 1:9, for example). In fact if you look at hebrews 10:32 'enlightened' is clearly used as a synonym for 'saved'. 'Gift of heaven' is also surely equivelant to 'gift of god' (heaven is often used as a substitute for God in Jewish circles) and 'the gift of god' was generally used to mean salvation.

Sorry, I think Owen's arguments are just bad if he is claiming that the language used in 6:4 is not salvific....

[Ormly]

No, obviously they don't but if they did it would resolve the whole problem so i understand why you want to try and take the easy way out. Hebrews 6 is clearly talking about what any systematic theology would call 'salvation' - an experience of divine grace and conversion. Its just typical, people ignoring the plain meaning of the text in order to reconcile it with their own theologies. The author of Hebrews (and I'd suggest the author of the Johaninne Epistles also did) believes that those who turn away from the gospel can't turn back. The texts were written in a context where many were turning back to Judaism from Christianity (rejecting claims of the deity of Christ most likely, seeing him as no more than Messiah) and the authors are clearly saying "If you do that then you're screwed, you can't come back so think carefully about making the choice."

If we look through the OT though (or even the gospels) we see that the nature of God is to always forgive those who truely repent. Is Hebrews actually saying that somebody who turns away can't repent of that choice rather than that God won't forgive them if they do repent? Probably. But that still leaves the problem that people do/have repented of such actions and as far as anyone can tell God has accepted their repentance as valid.

What heavenly gift have you partaken of?

[James Peter]

The Holy Spirit? (Acts 8:20) Jesus himself? (John 4:10) Grace? (2 Cor 9:15, Eph 4:7 and others).

[Ormly]

The Holy Spirit? (Acts 8:20) Jesus himself? (John 4:10) Grace? (2 Cor 9:15, Eph 4:7 and others).

Good. Did you receive the Holy Spirit per John 20.22 or Acts 2.4? Just curious