Surprise, surprise, skeptics and liberals. Jesus DID condemn homosexuality.

[The Laughing Man]

Mark 7

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

Verse 21 in the original Greek:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible....t=na&sr=1&l=en

eswqen gar ek thv kardiav twn anqrwpwn oi dialogismoi oi kakoi ekporeuontai, porneiai, klopai, fonoi

Here's the definition for the word "porneiai:"

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4202

illicit sexual intercourse

1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,

With one word, Jesus condemned all those things. Of course, you can continue to falsely claim that he did not condemn homosexuality based upon a search of English translations if you really want to.

[whizler]

Raise your hand if you're in a relationship with a divorced man or woman.

Keep it raised if you've had sex with that person.

If you're hand is still raised, Jesus says you're no better than the homosexual.

[neocon_voter]

Raise your hand if you're in a relationship with a divorced man or woman.

Keep it raised if you've had sex with that person.

If you're hand is still raised, Jesus says you're no better than the homosexual.

If you're addressing born-again Christians, they've already raised their hands and admitted they are sinners, and have had their sins forgiven them. The problem with some sinners though, is that they don't admit their sins and sometimes claim their sins are not really sins,

however:
1st Epistle of John, Chapter 1, verses 8 to 10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Neocon_Voter

[nickcopernicus]

Nick:

Does "We" include Jesus? Does "we" include infants/toddlers?

Nick

[neocon_voter]

Nick:

Does "We" include Jesus? Does "we" include infants/toddlers?

Nick

Infants/toddlers are not accountable. They don't know any better than selfish egoism.

Biblically, Jesus didn't sin:

Hebrews Chapter 4, verses 14,15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Neocon_Voter

[whizler]

If you're addressing born-again Christians, they've already raised their hands and admitted they are sinners, and have had their sins forgiven them. The problem with some sinners though, is that they don't admit their sins and sometimes claim their sins are not really sins,

Then these born-again Christians are no longer having sex with their spouses who've been previously divorced?

What counts as a sin nowadays? I can ask 10 Christians and get 11 different answers.

[nickcopernicus]

Infants/toddlers are not accountable. They don't know any better than selfish egoism.

Biblically, Jesus didn't sin:

Hebrews Chapter 4, verses 14,15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Neocon_Voter

NICK:
Then who exactly is "all" in "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of god?"

Cheers

Nick

[neocon_voter]

Then these born-again Christians are no longer having sex with their spouses who've been previously divorced?

What counts as a sin nowadays? I can ask 10 Christians and get 11 different answers.

Christians are sinning all day long. The only difference is that their sins are forgiven. They're the admitted sinners. Everybody else sin all day long too. But they haven't admitted it to their MAKER.

Oh well.

Neocon_Voter

[Jon_Day]

what if someone is born with a mental or emotional disability that prevents them from ascertaining what these things might mean. are they forgiven even though they know not enough to admit these as sins?

[neocon_voter]

NICK:
Then who exactly is "all" in "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of god?"

Cheers

Nick

I believe the chapter is referring to exclusive-humans (humans who are exclusively human and not God-incarnate).

Did you think that because the word 'all' is in there it must refer to cats, dogs, flies, birds, and God too?

Have a look at the verses leading up to 23:

Romans Chapter 3, verses 11 to 23
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do you think verse 11 refers to God/Jesus Himself? How could it? He IS God. Do you think Jesus comes short of the glory of God? How? He already is God.

Neocon_Voter

[nickcopernicus]

Nick:

Honestly, I don't know who it was reffering to. You see... Who was JC talking to when he said "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

Or "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Was he speaking to himself in delerium? I doubt it.

As for the Romans... They were talking about Atheists. They were reffering to Psalms 14

Folly and Wickedness of Men.

For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad."

Nick:

That is absurd. So if I were to save a dying child then I have done nothing good, yes?
"Without faith, it is impossible to please the lord"... or something like that.

In any case, I think the "all" was reffering to everyone human. JC was human, was he not?

Cheers,

Nick

[Minnesota]

Mark 7

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

Verse 21 in the original Greek:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible....t=na&sr=1&l=en

eswqen gar ek thv kardiav twn anqrwpwn oi dialogismoi oi kakoi ekporeuontai, porneiai, klopai, fonoi

Here's the definition for the word "porneiai:"

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4202

illicit sexual intercourse

1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,

With one word, Jesus condemned all those things. Of course, you can continue to falsely claim that he did not condemn homosexuality based upon a search of English translations if you really want to.

So, did Jesus speak Greek? There is no guarantee that the Greek rendering of Jesus words accurately reflects their Aramaic meaning. Just look at what has happened to the translation of the Greek porneiða as today's "fornications." "Fornications" today doesn't mean what the Greek word porneiða meant. So it stands to reason that the Greek porneiða doesn't necessarily mean the same as the Aramic word Jesus used.

Definition of "fornication" from Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 10th Edition

1. consenting sex involving somebody unmarried: sexual intercourse between two consenting adults who are not married to each other

From the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

NOUN: Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.

No hint of a connection to homosexual activity.



Not finding an Aramic translation of Mark, I used one of Matthew to see how the Greeks translated the term Jesus used into their porneiða.

My SOURCE was Burkitt's 1904 translation of the Aramaic Matthew.

Here's how our English version stacks up against the one made directly from Aramaic.

Matthew 5:32 KJV

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 5:32 translated directly from the Aramaic

But I say to you, He that dismisseth his wife, concerning whom there hath not been alleged adultery, he causeth her to commit adultery; and he that taketh up a divorced woman doth indeed commit adultery.

Obviously Jesus isn't implying anything close to the homosexuality of porneiða




Matthew 19:9 KJV

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Matthew 19:9 translated directly from the Aramaic:
But I say to you, He that leaveth his wife without a word of adultery, and taketh another, doth indeed commit adultery against her."

Again, Jesus isn't implying anything close to the homosexuality of porneiða



Matthew 15: 19 KJV

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Matthew 15:19 translated directly from the Aramaic:

For from the heart come forth evil thoughts of murder and of adultery, and of fornication, and of theft, and false witness, and blasphemy

Ah ha, a translation of some Aramaic word as "fornication"

Using another source, HERE (ya gotta type in the word) we find that the Aramaic word translated as "fornication" in Matthew 15:19 has the same meaning as that used in Mark 7.

Fwynz
Lexeme: Fwynz
Root: 0nz
Word Number: 5850

source (ya have to type in the number)

And looking up the Word Number 5850 we see it means harlotry.

So Mark 7:21 isn't referring to homosexuals as one is led to believe by using the the Greek translation porneiða. The word is referring to harlotry.



.

[Jon_Day]

why will no one touch the mental disability issue?

[neocon_voter]

Nick:

Honestly, I don't know who it was reffering to. You see... Who was JC talking to when he said "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

Or "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Was he speaking to himself in delerium? I doubt it.

As for the Romans... They were talking about Atheists. They were reffering to Psalms 14

Folly and Wickedness of Men.

For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad."

Nick:

That is absurd. So if I were to save a dying child then I have done nothing good, yes?
"Without faith, it is impossible to please the lord"... or something like that.

In any case, I think the "all" was reffering to everyone human. JC was human, was he not?

Cheers,

Nick

Jesus (God the Son) was forsaken by His Father, (God the Father). How could God the Father look on Jesus when Jesus took on the sins of the whole world and 'became sin' for us.

Saving dying children is a good thing. You do what you can to save them, but if God wants them bad enough, He will take them. We just do our part. Its not really all that complicated.

Jesus was human, but He was also God-incarnate. Thats why I added the qualifier *exclusively*

Neocon_Voter

[Jon_Day]

Jesus (God the Son) was forsaken by His Father, (God the Father). How could God the Father look on Jesus when Jesus took on the sins of the whole world and 'became sin' for us.

Saving dying children is a good thing. You do what you can to save them, but if God wants them bad enough, He will take them. We just do our part. Its not really all that complicated.

Jesus was human, but He was also God-incarnate. Thats why I added the qualifier *exclusively*

Neocon_Voter

supposing that saving dying children brings upon a plague of pestilence thus killing many more people than children were saved? supposing the reason the dying children are dying is because they have a terrible disease, and keeping them alive will cause many others to catch the disease.