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The mob that killed Joseph

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    I sent them a correction.
    This part is a hoot....

    Trying to go out the window to deflect attention from the two survivors inside, Joseph Smith was hit in the chest and collarbone with two shots from the open doorway and two more from outside the window. His final words as he fell to the ground outside the jail were, "O Lord, my God!*" (HC 6:618). As rumors spread that the Mormons were coming, the mob dispersed.


    In a drastic attempt to make Smith a martyr, he wasn't "running for his life", he was "trying to save the two survivors inside".

    And the part about rumors that the Mormons were coming -- they were already THERE - to dispense justice (albeit totally improper) to the man who had swindled them out of money, property, wives, honor....



    *this was supposedly the "distress signal" in hopes that his fellow Masons would save him.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      This part is a hoot....

      Trying to go out the window to deflect attention from the two survivors inside, Joseph Smith was hit in the chest and collarbone with two shots from the open doorway and two more from outside the window. His final words as he fell to the ground outside the jail were, "O Lord, my God!*" (HC 6:618). As rumors spread that the Mormons were coming, the mob dispersed.


      In a drastic attempt to make Smith a martyr, he wasn't "running for his life", he was "trying to save the two survivors inside".

      And the part about rumors that the Mormons were coming -- they were already THERE - to dispense justice (albeit totally improper) to the man who had swindled them out of money, property, wives, honor....



      *this was supposedly the "distress signal" in hopes that his fellow Masons would save him.
      Yeah, it's an interesting take on it especially considering that he was the primary target.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        They were NOT dressed as Indians.

        Source: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Martyrdom_of_Joseph_and_Hyrum_Smith


        Despite his promises of protection and a fair trial, Governor Ford allowed the Smiths to be imprisoned by their enemies without bail and without a hearing on a wholly new charge of treason for having declared martial law in Nauvoo. Stating that he had to "satisfy the people," the Governor ignored clear warnings of danger and disbanded most of the troops. He then left the hostile Carthage Greys to guard the jail and took the most dependable troops with him to Nauvoo.

        During the governor's absence, a mob of between one hundred and two hundred armed men-many of them from the disbanded Warsaw militia-gathered in late afternoon, blackened their faces with mud and gunpowder, and then stormed the jail. In less than two minutes, they overcame feigned resistance from the Greys, rushed upstairs, and fired through the closed door. Hyrum, shot first, died instantly. John Taylor, an apostle, tried to escape out a window and was shot five times, but survived to later become the Church's third President. Only Willard Richards, another apostle, survived unharmed. Trying to go out the window to deflect attention from the two survivors inside, Joseph Smith was hit in the chest and collarbone with two shots from the open doorway and two more from outside the window. His final words as he fell to the ground outside the jail were, "O Lord, my God!" (HC 6:618). As rumors spread that the Mormons were coming, the mob dispersed.

        © Copyright Original Source

        That was Indian face paint!
        https://play.google.com/books/reader...n&pg=GBS.PA329
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          No history recounted in any of the written or oral accounts mentioned Indians.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            No history recounted in any of the written or oral accounts mentioned Indians.
            So where did that part of the story come from?

            As I had said, it is my understanding there were Masons dressed as Indians. OK. Do this, provided testimony that allegation is patently false.
            Last edited by 37818; 01-03-2016, 04:30 PM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              So where did that part of the story come from?
              Probably from mistaking earlier reports of mobs dressing as actual Indians and raiding the town of Far West. See A Young Folks' History of the Church of Jesus Christ of L.D.S. By Nephi Anderson, p. 80


              As I had said, it is my understanding there were Masons dressed as Indians.
              I've been actively investigating, learning about, and debating against the Mormon church for almost 20 years. I've read tons of volumes of newspapers, books, web articles, and anything else I could get my hands on. I've never seen any report say that the mob had people dressed as Indians.

              OK. Do this, provided testimony that allegation is patently false.
              That's stupid. It'd be just as impossible to prove that there were dozens of George Washington cosplayers in the mob. The fact remains that not one single report from the time, whether Mormon or otherwise, claimed the mob had dressed up Indians in it.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #22
                Why, exactly, would it be necessary for the Masons to dress as Indians? The Masons were only part of the overall mob, they had superiority in numbers, and the guards appeared to be complicit in the attack.

                It just makes no sense at all that the Masons would need to "dress as Indians".

                Additionally, if Smith did, indeed, issue the Mason Distress Signal, he would have had to know it was Masons in the crowd, not war-painted Indians.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  Probably from mistaking earlier reports of mobs dressing as actual Indians and raiding the town of Far West. See A Young Folks' History of the Church of Jesus Christ of L.D.S. By Nephi Anderson, p. 80
                  Then why the face paint of mud and gunpowder? What was their purpose in that?



                  I've been actively investigating, learning about, and debating against the Mormon church for almost 20 years. I've read tons of volumes of newspapers, books, web articles, and anything else I could get my hands on. I've never seen any report say that the mob had people dressed as Indians.
                  So. That does not change what I had understood to be the case.

                  Do you know why the mob killed Joseph Smith? What was his crime they for which they needed to kill him? Do you know who Captain Morgan was and why he was killed?


                  That's stupid. It'd be just as impossible to prove that there were dozens of George Washington cosplayers in the mob. The fact remains that not one single report from the time, whether Mormon or otherwise, claimed the mob had dressed up Indians in it.
                  Calling it just stupid does not make that report you do not like, not true.

                  It is very simple, we need ask why is the false report even being made? I was lead to believe that report was true. That is why I mentioned it. I thought it would be of interest. I guess I was wrong in thinking so.
                  Last edited by 37818; 01-03-2016, 08:25 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Why, exactly, would it be necessary for the Masons to dress as Indians? The Masons were only part of the overall mob, they had superiority in numbers, and the guards appeared to be complicit in the attack.

                    It just makes no sense at all that the Masons would need to "dress as Indians".

                    Additionally, if Smith did, indeed, issue the Mason Distress Signal, he would have had to know it was Masons in the crowd, not war-painted Indians.
                    Why were they wearing "war-paint," mud and gunpowder on their faces? What was the purpose of that?
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Doing reading on the internet . . . Joseph Smith was killed for his polygamy. The mob wearing "war paint" was for no other reason than to hide individual identities. Joseph's alleged attempt to call fellow Masons for help was cut short in mid sentence when he was shot. A reported eye witness sketch of the event drew men in common attire, not dressed as Indians.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Why were they wearing "war-paint," mud and gunpowder on their faces? What was the purpose of that?
                        I don't think they were. I think the reports of that were in error.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          It is very simple, we need ask why is the false report even being made? I was lead to believe that report was true. That is why I mentioned it. I thought it would be of interest. I guess I was wrong in thinking so.
                          I think if it actually happened that way, it would be more prominent in reports of the time. I can't say absolutely that there were not persons there with blackened faces, but even that doesn't imply "dressed like Indians".
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The writer I read most likely ment by "dressed as Indian" only referred to the use of the mud and wet gunpowder to blacken their faces which that writer did not mention. In light of all that I have now read on this, that makes sense. Considering what was reported by eyewitnesses as to how the mob was dressed.imgfHUZDICarthageJail1844.jpg
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by 37818; 01-04-2016, 08:15 AM.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I think the people dressed as Indians might have been Mormons at Mountain Meadows.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                the "Indians" is referring to the Mountain Meadows Massacre where Mormons dressed up like Indians and killed travelers.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
                                The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train, at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7 and culminated on September 11, 1857, resulting in the mass slaughter of the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district, together with some Paiute Native Americans. The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of southern Utah's Mormon settlers (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the LDS Church). Intending to leave no witnesses and thus prevent reprisals, the perpetrators killed all the adults and older children—about 120 men, women, and children in total. Seventeen children, all younger than seven, were spared.

                                The wagon train, mostly families from Arkansas, was bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory, during a conflict later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, joined forces to organize an attack on the wagon train.

                                Intending to give the appearance of Native American aggression, the militia's plan was to arm some Southern Paiute Native Americans and persuade them to join with a larger party of their own militiamen—disguised as Native Americans—in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train the emigrants fought back, and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men and had likely discovered the identity of their attackers. As a result militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants.

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