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Thread: Apostasy

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    tWebber
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    Apostasy

    I have a question regarding apostasy in Islam. Let's use a simple example of an individual, born and raised as a Muslim, living in an Islamic theocratic nation, who has openly declared their apostasy/rejection of the Islamic faith. What would the punishment be for this individual?
    Last edited by Scrawly; 01-04-2016 at 03:57 PM.

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    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    I have a question regarding apostasy in Islam. Let's use a simple example of an individual, born and raised as a Muslim, living in an Islamic theocratic nation, who has openly declared their apostasy/rejection of the Islamic faith. What would the punishment be for this individual?
    It varies from country to country. In states like Saudi Arabia, it means death. In states like Tunisia, the death penalty does not exist for apostasy.

    As a side note, I don't think Muhammad ever intended for the death penalty in all cases of apostasy, but only those cases in which politics are involved (as in, you converted from Islam and then joined another community harmful to the Muslims). See here.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    It varies from country to country. In states like Saudi Arabia, it means death. In states like Tunisia, the death penalty does not exist for apostasy.

    As a side note, I don't think Muhammad ever intended for the death penalty in all cases of apostasy, but only those cases in which politics are involved (as in, you converted from Islam and then joined another community harmful to the Muslims). See here.
    The Sahih Hadith seem to be pretty explicit that apostasy from Islam merits death. These are far from the only sources which explicitly state that the punishment is death.

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 9 Book 83 no. 17
    Narrated by 'Abdullah
    Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

    Sahih al-Bukhari volume 9 book 84 no. 58

    Narrated Abu Burda, “Abu Musa said…..Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Musa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said,“I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger,” and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.

    These are Sahih Hadith, Sahih means "authentic". Sahih al-Bukhari are widely considered to be the most reliable. If the hadith aren't enough, I can go dig into Ibn Ishaq's "Life of Mohammed" for the part where it describes an incident where Mohammed wanted an apostate killed on that account.

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    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    The Sahih Hadith seem to be pretty explicit that apostasy from Islam merits death. These are far from the only sources which explicitly state that the punishment is death.

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 9 Book 83 no. 17
    Narrated by 'Abdullah
    Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

    Sahih al-Bukhari volume 9 book 84 no. 58

    Narrated Abu Burda, “Abu Musa said…..Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Musa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said,“I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger,” and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.

    These are Sahih Hadith, Sahih means "authentic". Sahih al-Bukhari are widely considered to be the most reliable. If the hadith aren't enough, I can go dig into Ibn Ishaq's "Life of Mohammed" for the part where it describes an incident where Mohammed wanted an apostate killed on that account.
    To be fair, the first Hadith says can, not that you should in all cases. This would be linked with politics and not just a personal conviction.

    More context is needed on the second one.

    From the article I linked:

    The verbal Sunnah, which is composed of statements by the Prophet, contains solitary hadiths that contain the command to kill the apostate. One of the most salient hadiths of this type and the most widely cited among Muslim jurists, most of whom have relied on this specific hadith in arguing for the death penalty for apostates, states, “If anyone changes his religion, put him to death.” This hadith became widely known after the early days of Islam. Before that time, however, it was just a solitary hadith, which was considered to be incompletely transmitted. This particular hadith is connected with a situation where Jewish leaders were working to undermine the Prophet, Revelation, and his mission in every way possible, by spreading falsehoods about Muslims in Madinah, plotting divisions, and undermining the group’s security overall. ............................These verses [33:60-62] from the Qur’an were revealed to stop this type of conspiracy against Islam’s internal front and attempts to rend it asunder. Hence, if the hadith according to which the Apostle said, “If anyone changes his religion, put him to death” is sound, he will have had this serious security situation in mind when he uttered the words in question.
    This might provide a context for that hadith.

    I would be interested in the "Life of Muhammad" though I'm not so sure about its reliability.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    To be fair, the first Hadith says can, not that you should in all cases. This would be linked with politics and not just a personal conviction.
    Where do you get the idea that you should not do so in some cases, or that that's even allowed in this context?

    More context is needed on the second one.
    Without going through the histories and biographies it's much harder to get the context of both the Quran and ahadith.

    From the article I linked:



    This might provide a context for that hadith.
    Actually, that's speaking of a different hadith that I did not cite here. There are actually quite a few that talk about death of apostates.

    I would be interested in the "Life of Muhammad" though I'm not so sure about its reliability.
    Here you go.

    [cite=Life of Mohammed]
    Safwan b. Ummaya, Suhayl b. Amr, and Ikrirna the son of Abu Jahl, however, had
    gathered some men together to fight at al-Khandama. They were attacked by Khalid's
    column of tribesmen, two of whom strayed from the main body and were slain; but
    twelve or thirteen of the idolaters were killed, and the others put to Aight. The apostle
    had instructed his commanders not to fight against any man except those who
    attacked. There were, however, some enemies of Allah whom he ordered to be slain
    even if they were hidden in the curtains of the Kaba itself
    One of these was Abdullah
    b. Sad; the apostle of Allah ordered him to be killed because, after having made a
    profession of Islam and assisted the apostle in writing the revelations, he had relapsed
    into idolatry, returned to his home, and taken refuge with his milk-brother. This
    brother concealed him, but at last brought him to the apostle of Allah, after Mecca had
    settled down peaceably. He pleaded for him, and it is recorded that the apostle of
    Allah remained silent for a long while; then he said, 'Yes.' After the man had
    departed, the apostle turned to his companions and said, 'I remained silent, expecting
    that one of you would rise and strike off his head.' Then a man of the Helpers asked,
    'Why didst thou not give me a sign, o apostle of Allah?' and he replied, A prophet
    does not kill by a sign.
    ' [/quote]

    As you can see, certain people were said in advance that they needed to be killed, regardless of whether or not they fought, regardless of whether or not they were hiding in the curtains of Kaba. The Kaba being the most sacred place in Islam. You can also see that while this man was let go, Mohammed did not want to let him go. He was hoping that his men would kill the man begging for forgiveness.

    Now, as to the reliability of this work. It's the earliest work we have on Mohammed's life. Likewise, the Sahih Hadith are the "authentic" traditions. If we can't go by what these works say, then we can't know much at all about Mohammed. If you go back and read the earliest sources, you get a much different picture than what is given today by the mainstream media, and by the apologists for Islam.

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    tWebber
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    I skimmed through the link QW gave---I agree....

    There are 5 major schools of Sharia(Fiqh/Law)---and they have different opinions and even within these schools---opinions have varied in time....

    Sharia, as a system of Justice is meant to preserve rights the 6 major groups of rights are:--(Maqasid al-Sharia)
    Right to conscience/way of life (deen)
    right to life (nafs)
    right to identity---lineage (nasl)
    right to intellect (aql)
    right to property (mal)
    Law/Justice (traditionally) meant matters between humans---as human beings had no right to judge or punish matters between God and human---such as if a person prays or not...etc
    Therefore apostasy was originally only a problem during wartime---because only Muslims had the obligation to fight, non-Muslims were under the protection of Muslims and were not required to fight in wars. That is why when a soldier left Islam during wartime it could be seen as treason---if there was evidence. But, occasionally, it also became a convenient political tool to unjustly silence people whose opinions were deemed problematic by the particular political power of the time. (The Quran allows for death in the case of treason, but exile is recommended and was also preferred by the Prophet )

    Today---the way law is practiced in some countries, the separation between "justice between man and God" and justice between man and man" is not clear...leading to problems in the application of justice.

    ahadith---there are many sayings of the Prophet and they will contradict each other because on one occasion "x" will be recommended but on another "y" will be advocated. Which is why the traditional study of the sayings of the Prophet has a methodology (science). With the internet, this practice has become eroded so that anyone can simply pick this or that and misquote, misuse or misunderstand....

    Modernity has also destroyed much of the traditional educational systems and methods of understanding and developing principles of Justice, because under colonization the "western" system of law and education replaced the traditional systems. This hybridization caused a mismatch and law become consolidated with that of the state causing it to be used for the purpose of power rather than to curtail the abuse of power as Sharia was traditionally meant to do.....

    If Muslims are going to solve the problems of abuse and misuse of Sharia---we need to look more seriously at history and find new ways to bring ethical Justice to our globalized world today....

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    tWebber
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    The concept that a soldier deserting during wartime may be treasonous is also evident in the U.S. Army---an example is the U.S.--Philippine war in which some African-American soldiers defected to the Phillipine side....

    http://www.nps.gov/prsf/learn/histor...ontroversy.htm

    "During the war in the Philippines, fifteen U.S. soldiers, six of them Black, would defect to Aquinaldo. One of the Black deserters, Private David Fagen became notorious as a "Insurecto Captain," and was apparently so successful fighting American soldiers that a price of $600 was placed on his head. The bounty was collected by a Filipino defector who brought in Fagen's decomposed head.

    A Black newspaper, the Indianapolis Freeman, editorialized in December, 1901, "Fagen was a traitor and died a traitor's death, but he was a man no doubt prompted by honest motives to help a weakened side, and one he felt allied by bonds that bind. "

    another pov...
    http://www.blackagendareport.com/con...e-american-war

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