Death (a reality check)

[Storico]

Sparko, thanks for the response. I've read the book of Romans several times, and all of those references seem to refer to people who are already actively living conscious adult lives. The references talk about people turning away, talking, cursing, shedding blood. Babies don't do those things, so there's no real life indication that we're BORN evil. If we were, why would most Christians say that young children and babies would go to Heaven if they died? Anyways, I don't want to hijack the thread.

[Sparko]

Sparko, thanks for the response. I've read the book of Romans several times, and all of those references seem to refer to people who are already actively living conscious adult lives. The references talk about people turning away, talking, cursing, shedding blood. Babies don't do those things, so there's no real life indication that we're BORN evil. If we were, why would most Christians say that young children and babies would go to Heaven if they died? Anyways, I don't want to hijack the thread.

Storico, anyone who has raised kids know that children are anything but pure and sinless. They start out very selfish and have to learn that there are others in the world and sharing. Nobody has ever had to teach a child what lying is. They pretty much invent that themselves.

So children are NOT sinless and pure. They are however not responsible for their sins because they don't know better. God is not going to send anyone to hell for sinning without knowing any better. That goes for children, and mentally incompetent people. God judges us on the things we DO know better about but sin anyway.

I normally don't like "the message" which is a modern english paraphrase, but there is one passage in romans that I think it paraphrases very well..

The Message

Romans 2:
12-13If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. 14-16When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

© source where applicable

[Storico]

Thanks for sharing, Sparko. And thanks for offering 'The Message' paraphrase. I've generally avoided reading it since it's a paraphrase. My father has gleeful enthusiasm for it -- he thinks it paraphrases everything wonderfully, although he uses other versions officially. I'm not as sure about how well it paraphrases, but in the case you offered, that was neat to see.

[Sevivon1913]

Storico, I recommend you read the whole book of Romans. Paul discusses this very thing in detail (sin) and the cure (Jesus)

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: Teallaura

Unnecessarily disruptive.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[lilpixieofterror]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Translation: "I disagree with Paul, so he's wrong! NANANANANA! " And sev continues with those ad hominems he accuses other's of doing. Gosh... this breaks my irony meter.

:irony:

Got another one I can buy Sparko?

Crystal

[Sevivon1913]

Translation: "I disagree with Paul, so he's wrong! NANANANANA! " And sev continues with those ad hominems he accuses other's of doing. Gosh... this breaks my irony meter.

:irony:

Got another one I can buy Sparko?

Crystal

"I disagree with Paul, so he's wrong" would be stupid, Lilangel, and you know perfectly well that that isn't my reason for disagreeing. I disagree with Paul BECAUSE he was a false prophet and BECAUSE he added to and subtracted from Torah; as every other false prophet before and after him has done.


Sevi
P.S. Let's not proceed to hijack this thread with an argument on Paul

[lilpixieofterror]

"I disagree with Paul, so he's wrong" would be stupid, Lilangel, and you know perfectly well that that isn't my reason for disagreeing. I disagree with Paul BECAUSE he was a false prophet and BECAUSE he added to and subtracted from Torah; as every other false prophet before and after him has done.

He's not a prophet for starters. so he's wrong because....

Crystal

[Turgonian]

Can't god just magick a "New Heavenly version" of the bible?

Is that too much to ask from an all powerful being?

I suppose so.

Can't nickcopernicus just engage in 'Bible Study'?

Is that too much to ask from a rational being?

I suppose so.

So I don't see any good reason to believe that we live forever, I see plenty of reasons to believe this idea is completely and totally false, and at the same time I can think of lots of reasons why people would WANT and DESIRE to believe that they are going to live forever and would believe in eternal life regardless of what anyone would say to them.

'So I don't see any good reason to believe that we really exist, I see plenty of reasons to believe this idea is completely and totally false,' (where did you see the non-existence of the soul, jimbo, or even reasons pointing towards it?), 'and at the same time I can think of lots of reasons why people would WANT and DESIRE to believe that they are real and would believe in real life regardless of what anyone would say to them.'

Why are you trying to convince anyone, by the way? Or aren't you trying that? Didn't you realize that your post rather begs the question, and you'd better spend your time at a thread debating the historicity of the Resurrection? For me, that is the prime argument for the existence of the soul.

[M.Talkingsworth]

Matt,



Let me put it this way: Virtually every way I look at it, Christianity appears to be false. My conclusion is that it is false. However, if a Christian was somehow able to introduce some new powerful information I haven't seen before or was actually able to perform a bona fide miracle that could be tested and repeated, then I could possibly change my mind. I am always open to new information. However, I don't know what you could tell me that would convince me that we somehow live after we die. I don't want you to waste your time compiling a huge thesis of Bible quotes and your personal experiences, if that was what you were thinking of doing, because that wouldn't convince me that we live after we die and I am sure that you have better things to do. I was mainly interested in seeing if anyone wanted to try to explain HOW we live after we die. I asked this because I don't think anyone can describe how this works and I think that when people try to explain this idea, they will begin to see why I cannot believe in the idea of life after death.

Cheers,

Jimbo

Actually, I think I may already know why you have such a hard time believing in life after death. It seems IMPOSSIBLE. I think I understand fairly well how impossible it seems to you because It seems impossible to me too. I have a very fertile imagination and can dream up lots of scenarios about what life after death *could* be, but it frankly seems impossible. So basically I have hope that it is true, but I certainly have no idea how anyone could prove the idea, without dying himself.

I am interested to hear what aspects of Christianity make you think it is false. If you are interested I can give you my take on the matters.

Hope this was lucid!

Matt