Is Epiphenomenalism Irrational?

[seer]

We make “moral choices” all the time based upon the illusion of free-will and furthermore we’re held responsible for them by our fellow-members of the community. This is how we’ve evolved to act as social animals. These decisions are in and of themselves a part of the causal chain. Have you understood nothing of the pages and pages and pages of discussion on this subject?

Yes I understand that when you do something immoral or wicked, not necessarily illegal, like chasing coeds, that logically do do not have to feel guilty - after all you could not help yourself, it was all determined.

[Tassman]

Yes I understand that when you do something immoral or wicked, not necessarily illegal, like chasing coeds, that logically do do not have to feel guilty - after all you could not help yourself, it was all determined.

NO, you clearly don’t understand at all.

The very reason we consider something to be “immoral or wicked” in the first place is because we evolved as a social species to recognize anti-social behaviours as being destructive to the social fabric. And yes we do “feel guilty” because such behaviour is contrary to our causally determined natural instincts. These instincts and resultant behaviours are in and of themselves a part of the causal chain.

Now, please explain your comment: “I believe our will and intellect breaks the deterministic chain - That I am the first cause of the decisions I make”. HOW can this possibly be so in a causally determined universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts?

[seer]

The very reason we consider something to be “immoral or wicked” in the first place is because we evolved as a social species to recognize anti-social behaviours as being destructive to the social fabric. And yes we do “feel guilty” because such behaviour is contrary to our causally determined natural instincts. These instincts and resultant behaviours are in and of themselves a part of the causal chain.

Yes, but now that we know that we are determined there is no rational reason to feel guilty. After all you had no control. So logically we can leave the baggage of guilt behind. It doesn't make sense - why feel bad for doing something that we could not help but to do?

Now, please explain your comment: “I believe our will and intellect breaks the deterministic chain - That I am the first cause of the decisions I make”. HOW can this possibly be so in a causally determined universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts?

Again, no matter how many times you say it, it is not true - the universe is not deterministic, it is probabilistic. So when my conscious awareness is presented with various options, like should I eat that second piece of cake or not, my conscious rational mind can work through the pros and cons and then make a choice. And that choice was based on conscious rational reasoning, I was not determined by chemicals. But like I said, even if I can't prove my position I will go to the gave believing that I am morally responsible for my decisions - unlike the determinist.

[Tassman]

Yes, but now that we know that we are determined there is no rational reason to feel guilty. After all you had no control. So logically we can leave the baggage of guilt behind. It doesn't make sense - why feel bad for doing something that we could not help but to do?

We feel guilty because we’re programmed by natural selection to conform to the rules of the group and feel bad when we don’t. It’s instinctive. We make our choices based upon the illusion of free-will and held responsible for them by the fellow-members of our community. This is how we've evolved to act as social animals living in community. These decisions are in and of themselves a part of the causal chain.

Again, no matter how many times you say it, it is not true - the universe is not deterministic, it is probabilistic.

For the umpteenth time it’s causally determined. The probabilistic universe only applies to quantum physics and quantum particles make no significant difference in the large scale universe wherein we live out our lives. This is why we can reliably put a man on the moon.

So when my conscious awareness is presented with various options, like should I eat that second piece of cake or not, my conscious rational mind can work through the pros and cons and then make a choice. And that choice was based on conscious rational reasoning, I was not determined by chemicals. But like I said, even if I can't prove my position I will go to the gave believing that I am morally responsible for my decisions - unlike the determinist.

How can you be the first cause of the decisions you make in a universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts…or do you believe things can happen without a cause? What utter nonsense! And, if we have libertarian free-will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop and why doesn’t it exist among other animals?

[seer]

We feel guilty because we’re programmed by natural selection to conform to the rules of the group and feel bad when we don’t. It’s instinctive. We make our choices based upon the illusion of free-will and held responsible for them by the fellow-members of our community. This is how we've evolved to act as social animals living in community. These decisions are in and of themselves a part of the causal chain.

So you have the illusion of guilt, but it is not a rational response. And as you spread your poison of determinism more and more people will realize that their personal sense of guilt is irrational. As we have seen in recent studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181791

[Tassman]

So you have the illusion of guilt, but it is not a rational response. And as you spread your poison of determinism more and more people will realize that their personal sense of guilt is irrational. As we have seen in recent studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18181791

The Thinker has several times disposed of this favourite quote mine of yours. Plus I've supplied several others that arrive at the opposite results. Scroll back and see.

Now answer the question: How can you be the first cause of the decisions you make in a universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts…or do you believe things can happen without a cause? If we have libertarian free-will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop and why doesn’t it exist among other animals? Merely dismissing the logical facts and substituting unsubstantiated illogical faith beliefs is not sufficient.

[seer]

The Thinker has several times disposed of this favourite quote mine of yours. Plus I've supplied several others that arrive at the opposite results. Scroll back and see.

No you haven't - where is your study that counters this study about belief in determinism. Your studies had nothing to do with this. But back to the point - now that we know were are determined, there is no logical reason for guilt.

Now answer the question: How can you be the first cause of the decisions you make in a universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts…or do you believe things can happen without a cause? If we have libertarian free-will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop and why doesn’t it exist among other animals? Merely dismissing the logical facts and substituting unsubstantiated illogical faith beliefs is not sufficient.

Tass, Joel has answered you a number of times - you are just to bias to get it.

[Tassman]

No you haven't - where is your study that counters this study about belief in determinism.

Already presented! But, regardless, what people “believe in” does not necessarily correlate with what is factually true or logically possible, e.g. your totally illogical belief in ‘libertarian free-will’.

- now that we know were are determined, there is no logical reason for guilt.

Bur, as you have demonstrated with your illogical LFW belief, humans are not necessarily “logical” creatures...we function largely by instinct. We have evolved as a social species possessing instincts which are naturally built into us, because they are beneficial to the survival of our species as social animals. And one of these instincts is “guilt” when we transgress against the rules of the group.

Tass, Joel has answered you a number of times - you are just to bias to get it.

Nope, he didn't. Joel is merely flogging his version of the Cosmological Argument for the existence of God, which is irrelevant in the light of emerging science.

Determinism states every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs. This is demonstrably the case. You have not presented any coherent contrary argument other than a personal testimony based entirely upon subjective feelings.

So, please explain your personal testimony: “I believe our will and intellect breaks the deterministic chain - That I am the first cause of the decisions I make”. HOW can this possibly be so in a causally determined universe wherein every event and every human decision and action is the logical consequence of antecedent states of affairs and facts?