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Thread: So...They Traveled to the Mideast.

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    41st Mojave Summer DesertBerean's Avatar
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    So...They Traveled to the Mideast.

    1) Is it not one of the five requirements of Islam - to visit Mecca at least once?

    2) They have relatives in the area. Why not visit them?


    This criteria of determining if one radicalized has always puzzled me.

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    1) Is it not one of the five requirements of Islam - to visit Mecca at least once?
    Yes, the pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the 5 Pillars of Islam. The only time it isn't required is if you are sick or poor.

    2) They have relatives in the area. Why not visit them?
    Depends on the country. Also depends on the relatives.

    This criteria of determining if one radicalized has always puzzled me.
    Well, perhaps they are taking into account 1. 2 would need to take into account who the family members were. For instance, visiting Osama bin Laden* is going to raise red flags, while your average Mohammed won't necessarily do so.

    *He's dead now obviously, but I think you get my point.

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    41st Mojave Summer DesertBerean's Avatar
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    Ok. Good points. It's one of the first items I see when the media reports on those individuals.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    There are many ... for lack of a better term... "secular" Muslims in the US. They take "a trip to Mecca" about as seriously as many Christians do witnessing or soulwinning.

    The fact that a Muslim takes the time and expense to make the pilgrimage indicates a greater degree of commitment to Islam, but is only part of the overall equation. Additionally, the "stops along the way" may be instructive - where they stopped, and for how long.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  5. Amen theophilus amen'd this post.
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    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    1) Is it not one of the five requirements of Islam - to visit Mecca at least once?

    2) They have relatives in the area. Why not visit them?


    This criteria of determining if one radicalized has always puzzled me.
    Who are you talking about?
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    41st Mojave Summer DesertBerean's Avatar
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    I keep seeing this point being raised whenever a Muslim is suspected or has in fact attacked someone or someplace. Most recently that poor Philly cop almost assassinated by an avowed Muslim who had visited the Mideast recently.

    Also, in relation to the Loma Linda shootout last month, they made a big deal of the Muslim couple's ties to the Mideast.

  8. Amen theophilus amen'd this post.
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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Can't we distinguish between being radicalized and taking your religion seriously? This isn't just about Islam, either. You hear about "radical Christians", and I don't think people should be allowed to smuggle that adjective in unchallenged since I think we all know the term "radical" has certain connotations. This guy was really a radical Muslim but it isn't just because he went to Mecca.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    I keep seeing this point being raised whenever a Muslim is suspected or has in fact attacked someone or someplace. Most recently that poor Philly cop almost assassinated by an avowed Muslim who had visited the Mideast recently.

    Also, in relation to the Loma Linda shootout last month, they made a big deal of the Muslim couple's ties to the Mideast.
    Ahh, I think is does actually depend where in the Middle East they were visiting.

    If they were just going to Mecca, or visiting Uncle Mohammed then no problem

    If they were visiting Abdullah's "Terrorists R Us" training college, then a wee bit of a problem.
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    "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
    -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
    -Ben Witherington III

  11. Amen Cow Poke, theophilus, klaus54 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Mainstream Media rarely have anything intelligent to offer or say these days---One should not take them too seriously......

    The term "Middle East" is itself curious---at least to me.....apparently it comprises of the following transcontinental countries.
    ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East

    Territories and regions usually within the Middle East
    Traditionally included[by whom?] within the Middle East are Iran (Persia), Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, the Levant, the Arabian Peninsula, and Egypt. In modern-day-country terms they are these:

    Bahrain
    Cyprus
    Egypt
    Iran
    Iraq
    Israel
    Jordan
    Kuwait
    Lebanon
    Oman
    Palestinian territories
    Qatar
    Saudi Arabia
    Syria
    Turkey[22]
    United Arab Emirates
    Yemen
    Other definitions of the Middle East
    Main articles: Near East and Greater Middle East
    Various concepts are often being paralleled to Middle East, most notably Near East, Fertile Crescent and the Levant. Near East, Levant and Fertile Crescent are geographic concepts, which refer to large sections of the modern defined Middle East, with Near East being the closest to Middle East in its geographic meaning.

    The countries of the South Caucasus—Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia—are occasionally included in definitions of the Middle East.

    The Greater Middle East was a political term coined by the second Bush administration in the first decade of the 21st century, to denote various countries, pertaining to the Muslim world, specifically Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Various Central Asian countries are sometimes also included.



    The use of the term "radicalized" is also biased---in that, it focuses mainly on how Muslim youth become violent---when actually the phenomenon is more general....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalization

    Some observations from research...



    Personal grievance
    This pathway emphasizes revenge for real or perceived harm inflicted upon oneself by an outside party. This initial offense triggers other psychodynamic mechanisms, such as thinking in more stark in-group and out-group terms, lowered inhibitions to violence, and lessened incentives to avoid violence. Chechen “Shahidka” also known as Black Widows, women who have lost husbands, children, or other close family members in conflict with Russian forces are a good example.
    Group grievance
    "Group grievance" radicalization dynamics are similar to those that are primed by personal grievances; the difference is that the subject perceives harm inflicted on a group that she belongs to or has sympathy for. This pathway accounts for the larger portion of political and ethnic radical violence, in which action is taken on behalf of the group at large rather than as an act of personal revenge. Radicalization out of sympathy for an outgroup is rarer, but can be observed in the Weather Underground's attempted alignment with the Black Panthers and Viet Cong. The tie between radicalization into violent extremism through group grievance and suicide bombing has also been quantifiably demonstrated: perceived threats to proximal identity such as the presence of foreign troops or invasion accounts for the majority of suicide bombings.
    Slippery slope
    The "Slippery slope" represents gradual radicalization through activities that incrementally narrow the individual’s social circle, narrow their mindset, and in some cases desensitize them to violence. This has also been called the “True Believer” syndrome, as a product of which one becomes increasingly serious about their political, social, and religious beliefs as a product of “taking the next step”. One can begin by participating in nonviolent activities such as mutual aid, wherein the best way to raise one’s in-group social status is to demonstrate seriousness about the cause and increase the level of commitment in terms of beliefs and activities. As an individual commits act after act, sunk costs are developed. Even if activity is initially only ideological or only criminal, the process of radicalization conflates the two such that criminal acts are justified for intellectually radical purposes, and radical purposes are invoked to justify what are ultimately criminal acts.
    Love
    Romantic and familial entanglement is often an overlooked factor in radicalization. Several violent extremist organizations, especially at their origin, owe their structure to a tight-knit group of friends who share religious, economic, social, and sexual bonds. While this example is evident in more extreme cases, such as those of Charles Manson's "Family" and other radical cults, it also applies to radicalization in secular and orthodox religious environments. Love can serve as a connection between influential figures, connecting their networks of followers through a combination of attraction and loyalty.[15] This particular force was especially notable in New Left radical groups, such as the American Weather Underground and the German Red Army Faction. The connections between Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, or between Gudrun Ensslin and Andreas Baader served as the organizational and intellectual nucleus of these groups.


    ....and this is also interesting.....

    Mass radicalization

    Chairman Mao Zedong writing On Protracted War in 1938.
    Jujitsu politics
    Also called "the logic of political violence", Jiujitsu politics is a form of asymmetrical political warfare in which radical groups act to provoke governments to crack down on the populace at large and produce domestic blowback that legitimates further violent action.[19] The primary purpose of a radical group using this tactic is not to destroy the enemy outright, but to make the enemy strike at political and ideological moderates, such that the existing political order loses its claim on legitimacy while the radical group gains legitimacy. By destroying moderates, radical groups encourage a bifurcated society and use state's reactions to violence as a justification for further violence.
    Al-Qaeda's strategy of luring the West, specifically the United States, into ground wars in Islamic states that polarize the Ummah against the West while avoiding engagements that would allow the American military to draw on its technical superiority is an example of jiujitsu politics. David Kilcullen, Counterinsurgency advisor to David Petraeus during the Iraq Surge, has called this the "accidental guerrilla syndrome".[22]

    This tactic is also pillar of Maoist insurgency and serves both the purposes of tactical and ideological advantage.

    Hatred
    In protracted conflicts the enemy is increasingly seen as less human, such that their common humanity does not readily trigger natural inhibitions against violence. This involves "essentializing" both the self and enemies as respectively good and evil entities. The Islamist use of Takfirism, or (apostasy), to justify the murder of non-radical Muslims and nonbelievers (kafir: "pagans") is an example of this. Hannah Arendt, in The Origins of Totalitarianism outlines a similar dynamic that contributed to the ideologies of pan-slavism, Nazism, and antisemitism, where an in-group constructs an exalted self identity for political purposes and mobilizes against out-groups in order to solidify that identity. This dynamic of hatred is not unique to rightist groups. The Weathermen and Red Army Faction often characterized police officers and government officials as “pigs” worthy of death and subhuman treatment.

  13. #10
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    [I]Mainstream Media rarely have anything intelligent to offer or say these days---One should not take them too seriously......
    Finally, something on which we can agree!

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  14. Amen Cerebrum123, DesertBerean amen'd this post.

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