Does Jesus's Prayer Show Christianity Is False?

[rogue06]

When are Hannibal, Queen Boudica, and Arminius first mentioned?

Or the "Father of Geometry," Euclid of Alexandria, the most prominent mathematician of Greco-Roman antiquity who lived during the reign of Ptolemy I Soter, Alexander's general (323–283 BC). While his 13 volume treatise on mathematics and geometry known simply as Elements is regarded as the most successful textbook ever written^[1], absolutely nothing appears to be written about him during his time which is extremely unusually in that highly detailed biographies are available for other important Greek mathematicians for several centuries both before and after him. In fact, it appears that we have to wait until over half a millennium until we find historical references to him (Pappus of Alexandria c.320 AD)!











1. it served as the main textbook for teaching mathematics from its publication all the way until the end of the 19th century.

[JimL]

Your claim implies that something decades later should be viewed with suspicion.

Do you view Hannibal, Boudica, and Arminius with suspicion?

Of course. Do you believe all that is written of history and of historical figures to be true?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Do you want to go with all-or-nothing thinking or general reliability?

There's a huge distance between complete suspicion and general reliability

[Gary]

I have made almost all the changes you requested. However, you are mistaken on the purpose of this survey. Nick has claimed that the evidence for the Resurrection is strong enough on its own to convince the average person of the veracity of Christianity. I say it isn't. I say that the evidence for the Resurrection is weak and therefore other factors must be brought in to persuade the average person of the claims of Christianity: emotional/psychological factors and personal experiences. The evidence on it's own is very weak.

How can I guarantee complete neutrality? I am simply going to send the survey to random people. It will not be a scientifically conducted survey. It will be as if I went out on the street corner and asked people at random. You and other Christians are welcome to use the survey as you see fit. It is for sampling purposes only. The results will not be statistically official.

Dear _____________. This survey asks your opinion regarding the central alleged historical event of the Christian Faith: The Resurrection of the Dead Body of Jesus of Nazareth. We will present you with the evidence surrounding this event as agreed upon by the majority of historical experts. We will then present the Christian explanation for that evidence. At the end of this survey, we will ask you whether or not you believe that the preponderance of the evidence points to a miracle as described in the traditional reading of the Christian Bible, or whether you believe that the preponderance of the evidence can be explained by a more probable, naturalistic explanation, thereby indicating that you believe that the miracle of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus was most likely not an historical event. We are not asking you to believe in Jesus as God or to convert to Christianity. We are only asking your opinion as to the evidence and the believability of the Christian Resurrection miracle claim.

The majority of scholars/experts believe that Jesus of Nazareth was executed by the Roman Empire, by crucifixion, in Jerusalem, Palestine, in circa 30 AD. In addition, the majority of scholars/experts agree on the following as historical facts regarding Jesus' death, burial, and the period of time shortly after his death:

1. Public execution.
2. Public burial.
3. Sealed tomb.
4. Guards at the tomb for most of the period of time in question.
5. Empty tomb, three days and two nights later, with stone rolled away. (No known witnesses to the body leaving the tomb, however)
6. Post-death sightings of the resurrected body, sometimes by hundreds of people at once.
7. Dramatically changed behavior of disciples.
8. Very shameful, very strange new belief system in an Honor-Shame society.
9. A belief never heard of in Judaism, yet believed by several thousand devout Jews.
10. Rapid spread of Christianity.
11. Willingness of thousands of Christians to be persecuted, tortured, and painfully executed for their beliefs.
12. The apostles of Jesus believed in the bodily resurrection and preached it.

Christians claim that this evidence points to the following miracle, as described in their holy book, the Bible, and that this miracle is the best explanation for the evidence:

--- the dead man, Jesus of Nazareth, was brought back to life by the Jewish/Christian God, Yahweh (his Father),
---exited his sealed tomb by some manner other than moving the stone,
--- appeared in a body---that could walk through locked doors and appear and disappear in a matter of seconds---to hundreds of disciples and family members on multiple occasions,
--- and then, forty days later, after a final meeting with this disciples, he ascended into the clouds,
--- and after ascending into the clouds, he entered his home, "heaven", a place of unknown location,
--- and once Jesus arrived there, he sat on a throne next to his Father, God the Father, where he still sits today, ruling from his throne as the all-powerful, all-knowing Ruler of the Universe.

Question: Do you believe that this miracle explanation of Christianity is the most probable explanation for the evidence above, or, do you believe that there are other more probable, naturalistic, explanations for this evidence?

Please select one of the following by marking with an X:

Miracle explanation more probable: ______
Other naturalistic explanation more probable: _____


Are you religious: ____ If so, are you: Christian: ____ Muslim: ____ Hindu: ____ Buddhist: ___ Other religion: ___

Not religious: ___


Thank you for participating in our survey!

[JimL]

Do you want to go with all-or-nothing thinking or general reliability?

There's a huge distance between complete suspicion and general reliability

That was my point, history isn't an all or nothing proposition. Were Hannibal, Boudica, Arminius and Jesus historical figures? Most assuredly yes. Is everything written of them factual? Most assuredly not.

[Apologiaphoenix]

And all of it is decades later.

Why do we not see mention of such important events until decades later? (Never mind the main evidences of the resurrection date to within 5 years later)

[Gary]

And all of it is decades later.

Why do we not see mention of such important events until decades later? (Never mind the main evidences of the resurrection date to within 5 years later)

So is the wording of the survey acceptable to you, Nick?

[Leonhard]

However, you are mistaken on the purpose of this survey. Nick has claimed that the evidence for the Resurrection is strong enough on its own to convince the average person of the veracity of Christianity.

I'm not sure this the exact thing that Nick believes. However the Ressurection is the cornerstone of Christianity. Its the sine qua non of our faith. If a person accepts that Christ was raised from Death, then there are usually no other objections to be had.

Basically how could Jesus be raised without God, and without being who He said He was?

How can I guarantee complete neutrality?

What Adrift is getting at is that you're very coy about formulations. You use lengthy wordy phrases, rather than the plain and minimum. You use sentences that are constructed to point out the things a naturalist would balk at such as 'rising off the ground without mechanical means'

Let me give some aids here and you can tell me if its good.

This survey asks your opinion regarding the central alleged historical event of the Christian Faith: The Resurrection of the Dead Body of Jesus of Nazareth. We will present you with the evidence surrounding this event as agreed upon by the majority of historical experts. We will then present the Christian explanation for that evidence. At the end of this survey, we will ask you whether or not you believe that the preponderance of the evidence points to a miracle as described in the traditional reading of the Christian Bible, or whether you believe that the preponderance of the evidence can be explained by a more probable, naturalistic explanation. We are not asking you to believe in Jesus as God or to convert to Christianity.

The majority of scholars/experts believe that Jesus of Nazareth was executed by the Roman Empire, by crucifixion, in Jerusalem, Palestine, in circa 30 AD. In addition, the majority of scholars/experts agree on the following as historical facts regarding Jesus' death, burial, and the period of time shortly after his death:

1. He was publically executed.
2. He was given a public burial.
3. His body was sealed in a tomb.
4. Guards stood at the tomb for most of the period of time in question.
5. Three days and two nights later, the tomb was found empty with the stone rolled away.
6. That hundreds of people at one time, and his apostles reported seeing him alive again.
7. That the behavior of the disciples changed dramatically, going from being defeated to boldly proclaiming a new message.
8. The apostles of Jesus believed in the bodily resurrection and preached it
9. They preached this despite it being considered very shameful, and a very strange new belief system in their society.
10. A belief never heard of in Judaism.
11. That despite opposition Christianity spread quickly.
12. That thousands of Christians chose to be persecuted, tortured, and painfully executed for this belief.

Christians claim that this evidence points to the following miracle, as described in their holy book, the Bible, and that this miracle is the best explanation for the evidence:

--- the dead man, Jesus of Nazareth, was brought back to life by God,
--- he exited his sealed tomb leaving it empty behind him
--- appeared bodily to his disciples
--- to hundreds of disciples and family members on multiple occasions,
--- and then, forty days later, after a final meeting with this disciples, he ascended into clouds vanishing from sight.

Question: Do you believe that this miracle explanation of Christianity is the most probable explanation for the evidence above, or, do you believe that there are other more probable, naturalistic, explanations for this evidence?

Please select one of the following by marking with an X:

Miracle explanation more probable: ______
Other naturalistic explanation more probable: _____


Are you religious: ____ If so, are you: Christian: ____ Muslim: ____ Hindu: ____ Buddhist: ___ Other religion: ___

Not religious: ___


Thank you for participating in our survey!

[Leonhard]

The bolded part is still a bit long and could use some trimming Gary.

[Gary]

I'm not sure this the exact thing that Nick believes. However the Ressurection is the cornerstone of Christianity. Its the sine qua non of our faith. If a person accepts that Christ was raised from Death, then there are usually no other objections to be had.

Basically how could Jesus be raised without God, and without being who He said He was?



What Adrift is getting at is that you're very coy about formulations. You use lengthy wordy phrases, rather than the plain and minimum. You use sentences that are constructed to point out the things a naturalist would balk at such as 'rising off the ground without mechanical means'

Let me give some aids here and you can tell me if its good.

This survey asks your opinion regarding the central alleged historical event of the Christian Faith: The Resurrection of the Dead Body of Jesus of Nazareth. We will present you with the evidence surrounding this event as agreed upon by the majority of historical experts. We will then present the Christian explanation for that evidence. At the end of this survey, we will ask you whether or not you believe that the preponderance of the evidence points to a miracle as described in the traditional reading of the Christian Bible, or whether you believe that the preponderance of the evidence can be explained by a more probable, naturalistic explanation. We are not asking you to believe in Jesus as God or to convert to Christianity.

The majority of scholars/experts believe that Jesus of Nazareth was executed by the Roman Empire, by crucifixion, in Jerusalem, Palestine, in circa 30 AD. In addition, the majority of scholars/experts agree on the following as historical facts regarding Jesus' death, burial, and the period of time shortly after his death:

1. He was publically executed.
2. He was given a public burial.
3. His body was sealed in a tomb.
4. Guards stood at the tomb for most of the period of time in question.
5. Three days and two nights later, the tomb was found empty with the stone rolled away.
6. That hundreds of people at one time, and his apostles reported seeing him alive again.
7. That the behavior of the disciples changed dramatically, going from being defeated to boldly proclaiming a new message.
8. The apostles of Jesus believed in the bodily resurrection and preached it
9. They preached this despite it being considered very shameful, and a very strange new belief system in their society.
10. A belief never heard of in Judaism.
11. That despite opposition Christianity spread quickly.
12. That thousands of Christians chose to be persecuted, tortured, and painfully executed for this belief.

Christians claim that this evidence points to the following miracle, as described in their holy book, the Bible, and that this miracle is the best explanation for the evidence:

--- the dead man, Jesus of Nazareth, was brought back to life by God,
--- he exited his sealed tomb leaving it empty behind him
--- appeared bodily to his disciples
--- to hundreds of disciples and family members on multiple occasions,
--- and then, forty days later, after a final meeting with this disciples, he ascended into clouds vanishing from sight.

Question: Do you believe that this miracle explanation of Christianity is the most probable explanation for the evidence above, or, do you believe that there are other more probable, naturalistic, explanations for this evidence?

Please select one of the following by marking with an X:

Miracle explanation more probable: ______
Other naturalistic explanation more probable: _____


Are you religious: ____ If so, are you: Christian: ____ Muslim: ____ Hindu: ____ Buddhist: ___ Other religion: ___

Not religious: ___


Thank you for participating in our survey!

I made all the changes he requested except for deleting the Christian miracle explanation of the evidence, which to me, is primary to the survey.

If you are telling someone in a non-Christian country, let's say, Malaysia, about "heaven", without saying what it is, where it is, and what it is like, you are confusing the reader, but I have deleted all the "fluff" that you and Drift do not like. I'm curious why you would want to delete the statement that the resurrected Jesus was resurrected so that he could sit on a throne in heaven to rule the universe. Isn't that the very purpose of the Resurrection?

Is your objection to the opening statement that it is too wordy or that it contains inaccurate statements?

Is the survey now satisfactory to everyone?

[Apologiaphoenix]

I don't really care about a survey for the same reason Adrift does and as I said, unless you have a valid statistician, it is all for naught.

[Leonhard]

If you are telling someone in a non-Christian country, let's say, Malaysia, about "heaven", without saying what it is, where it is, and what it is like, you are confusing the reader,

A divine heavenly realm is easy enough for people to understand. Scientific questions about it are only interesting to science fiction writers.

I'm curious why you would want to delete the statement that the resurrected Jesus was resurrected so that he could sit on a throne in heaven to rule the universe. Isn't that the very purpose of the Resurrection?

Because ostensibly the question of your survey is about the Ressurection itself. The central claim as you said in the bolded part. So just focus on that.

Sure you can pile on other truthes about what Christians believe, but then there would be no end to it.

That Christ was dead, rose again on the third day. Is the earliest known creed among Christians dating to around 35AD

Is the survey now satisfactory to everyone?

No. The concept is kinda cute but I'm not sure what its meant to prove, much less on how you plan to carry it out in an unbiased manner.

[Gary]

I don't really care about a survey for the same reason Adrift does and as I said, unless you have a valid statistician, it is all for naught.

Ok, I realize you don't like or trust the idea of a non-scientific survey, but is the evidence list accurate and the Christian interpretation of that evidence correctly stated?

[Gary]

A divine heavenly realm is easy enough for people to understand. Scientific questions about it are only interesting to science fiction writers.



Because ostensibly the question of your survey is about the Ressurection itself. The central claim as you said in the bolded part. So just focus on that.

Sure you can pile on other truthes about what Christians believe, but then there would be no end to it.

That Christ was dead, rose again on the third day. Is the earliest known creed among Christians dating to around 35AD



No. The concept is kinda cute but I'm not sure what its meant to prove, much less on how you plan to carry it out in an unbiased manner.

I'm curious, I hear this statement a lot that the Creed in I Corinthians 15 can be dated to within five years of the crucifixion. What evidence is that based on?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Ok, I realize you don't like or trust the idea of a non-scientific survey, but is the evidence list accurate and the Christian interpretation of that evidence correctly stated?

I'll go with Adrift and Leon because I suspect they're paying more attention at this point.