Women break silence on honour killings

[Dee Dee Warren]

A group of women in the Israeli city of Ramle has broken the code of silence on a string of honour killings within the city's Arab community. For one woman, it has meant giving police the evidence to charge her own son for murdering her daughter.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1900891.htm

[Crow]

Sickening, barbaric (no wait, the barbarians didn't kill their own women like this) evil, pathological, repugnant, vile degenerate etc...

I've run out of "clean" adjectives.

[Narnian]

From the interview - IMAMA ABU GHANEM (translation): In the Koran, there is no order, murder your sister, and I've asked my son, “Why didn't you put the rest of your bullets in your own head?”

Honor killing is implicit in the Koran and explicit in the Hadithes. Muhammad is the last and most important prophet of Islam. He is revered all over the Islamic world and deemed of character worth emulating. The Koran supports this view of Muhammad. This is just one of his actions towards women. Here we have the story of a young single depressed and ostracised young woman, whom he murders in cold blood and orphans the poor child who no doubt screams for her (not recorded of course):

I don't know how anyone can read this story and not feel totally sick, never mind follow this monster as a prophet. I'm not going to apologise for the strong language, because this is outrageous treatment of the most vulnerable humans;


Kitab Al-Hudud
Book 017, Number 4206:
There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

[Narnian]

From the Koran - Allah's words;

Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."

[barnasha]

From the Koran - Allah's words;

Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."

4:15 AND AS FOR those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine them to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way [through repentance].

4: 16 And punish [thus] both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone: for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.

[Narnian]

4:15 AND AS FOR those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine them to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way [through repentance].

4: 16 And punish [thus] both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone: for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.

Interesting example of the double speak in many of the Quran verses. The pattern goes; "hurt them ... do the repent-forgiveness act .... then praise the wonderful allah for such good deeds". It's totally schizophrenic and reminds me of the typical pattern of the abusive husband, where he beats his wife and then tells her he loves her and they kiss and make up and she ends up telling her friends how wonderful he is.

In truth, though, I think these schizoid verses are the result of a redactor. Read this;

4:15 AND AS FOR those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine them to their houses until death.16 And punish [thus] both of the guilty parties.

The above flows more logically than the former. Otherwise, why write in the punishment, if they are going to be forgiven? Makes no sense at all.

Besides, are women so stupid that they need to be "confined" until they "repent"? It's an insult to the intelligence.


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[barnasha]

Interesting example of the double speak in many of the Quran verses. The pattern goes; "hurt them ... do the repent-forgiveness act .... then praise the wonderful allah for such good deeds". It's totally schizophrenic and reminds me of the typical pattern of the abusive husband, where he beats his wife and then tells her he loves her and they kiss and make up and she ends up telling her friends how wonderful he is.

In truth, though, I think these schizoid verses are the result of a redactor. Read this;

your opinions hardly come off as unbiased, though i'm not surefor what purpose you feel the need to air them in public...

The above flows more logically than the former. Otherwise, why write in the punishment, if they are going to be forgiven? Makes no sense at all.

if spouse committed adultery on you, you would think that is ok?

Besides, are women so stupid that they need to be "confined" until they "repent"?

i disagree that it is about stupidity. women are not inherently 'stupid', that is a very sexist comment.

perhaps you overlooked the fact that the verse said that men should be given the same punishment?

[Narnian]

]your opinions hardly come off as unbiased, though i'm not surefor what purpose you feel the need to air them in public...

This is not a rebuttal to what I say. You cannot win a debate with shouts of "bias" or it is simply an Ad Hominen attack and shows that you have no real answer.

if spouse committed adultery on you, you would think that is ok?

Strawman This is so disappointing; you use logical fallacies all the time.

i disagree that it is about stupidity. women are not inherently 'stupid', that is a very sexist comment.

So you must disagree with the Koran, then, and also Muhammad who said women were deficient in intelligence and that hell would be populated with them?

perhaps you overlooked the fact that the verse said that men should be given the same punishment?

That doesn't make it any better. It's an insult to the intelligence of both men and women. When you treat people like children they remain children.


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[barnasha]

This is not a rebuttal to what I say. You cannot win a debate with shouts of "bias" or it is simply an Ad Hominen attack and shows that you have no real answer.

It is not a rebuttal to what you've said, but you've made no points worth rebutting. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions and they are valid as far as opinions go. When you are addressing a person, and not doing so to make some unrelated point, there is simply no logical fallacy there

Strawman This is so disappointing; you use logical fallacies all the time.

How so? A simple question is not necessarily a "straw man" fallacy.

So you must disagree with the Koran, then, and also Muhammad who said women were deficient in intelligence and that hell would be populated with them?

Women aren't inherently "deficient in intelligence", nor does the Quran say anything to this effect.

Men and women are equals but also have different strengths and weaknesses. This is not only true for human beings but also other species. I would argue that men are deficient in comparison to women in certain things, such as being nurturers, because the women are the mothers of our children.

Really, your attempts to misconstrue the Quran are sad, because you could be doing something constuctive instead of trying to somehow prove that someone said women are somehow 'inherently deficient' in some way.

If you want to do mankind a favor, purify yourself and help the needy instead of causing more enmity and strife. Attacking those who you perceive to be the enemy will make you lose focus of what is important, and that is to love thy neighbor, not to persecute him.

Otherwise, who is the one in error ?

That doesn't make it any better. It's an insult to the intelligence of both men and women. When you treat people like children they remain children.
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Adultery is an insult to family values. The way of the holy is piety, and faithfulness to your spouse and more importantly, to your family.

[Narnian]

Women aren't inherently "deficient in intelligence", nor does the Quran say anything to this effect.

Hadith Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Here confirmed in the Quran one man is worth 2 women in brain power.

The Quran 2:282, "But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her."

Really, your attempts to misconstrue the Quran are sad, because you could be doing something constuctive instead of trying to somehow prove that someone said women are somehow 'inherently deficient' in some way.

Exposing the Koran as destructive on humanity is highly constructive. This is one place I help the needy, because if you ask why there are the needy, it is because of oppressive ideologies like Islam. If YOU want to help the needy, you should stop supporting anything that is against humanity.

If you want to do mankind a favor, purify yourself and help the needy instead of causing more enmity and strife. Attacking those who you perceive to be the enemy will make you lose focus of what is important, and that is to love thy neighbor, not to persecute him.

Where have I attacked any human? Never in my life! I am a pacifist. I attack ideologies only, and only on an ideological level. I hate Islam because I love humanity.


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[barnasha]

Hadith Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Here confirmed in the Quran one man is worth 2 women in brain power.

The Quran 2:282, "But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her."



Exposing the Koran as destructive on humanity is highly constructive. This is one place I help the needy, because if you ask why there are the needy, it is because of oppressive ideologies like Islam. If YOU want to help the needy, you should stop supporting anything that is against humanity.



Where have I attacked any human? Never in my life! I am a pacifist. I attack ideologies only, and only on an ideological level. I hate Islam because I love humanity.


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I could "expose" the bible as "destructive" when it talks about genocide and the like, but the things that are said should be taken in context.

the fact is, you have an agenda to discredit islam so any points you make are made through that filter. indeed, most of your points include assertions about how bad or backwards islam is, without a single concession to anything positive about the culture. there is no need for me to refute you because there are many people like you, who attack christianity or attack science or attack politics, mostly they just have agendas, they don't care about furthering their own knowledge of the truth as much as proving the other side wrong. if you want to concern yourself with these worldly issues instead of increase your faith in God, then we are of completely different spheres of interest altogether.

anyway, now your point has gone from "ok maybe the quran didnt say what I asserted it said, but here's some other thing that proves that those 'muslims' think women are inferior!'

the problem is this argument is very weak becauase it does not really address the long history of muslim societies and the history of those hadeeth, etc. if you did a really in depth thorough analysis of misogynism in muslim societies and how the muslim societies can improve themselves, that would be of value.

but instead, you try to find anything which supports your point so you can slander anything bearing the name of islam. I am not accusing you of doing this, but to me, it seems readily apparent.

why not do something more constructive? why not point out all the good things which islam brought women of 7th century arabia? when you make concessions and make unbiased arugments, you can really do a lot of good for women in the islamic world and the secular world

[Narnian]

I could "expose" the bible as "destructive" when it talks about genocide and the like, but the things that are said should be taken in context.

the last and most important "prophet" of Christianity (the Son) did not act in ways that are inhumane, cruel or sinful. To the Christian-west, a true hero is never inhumane or cruel, even to achieve "good". No saint or apostle of Chrisitanity ever did evil or sinful deeds in order to achieve good.

But the hero-archetype of the muslim world would be the most dangerous and destructive character the world could imagine. THAT is my main reason why I am so against Islam and it's hero-prophet.

the fact is, you have an agenda to discredit islam so any points you make are made through that filter. indeed, most of your points include assertions about how bad or backwards islam is, without a single concession to anything positive about the culture.

Islam is not a culture; it's an ideology. In fact, it's a christian-based cult. The "goodness" in Islam came not from different tenets of Islam, but from Christianity itself; the fragments which are embedded in the Koran.

Good things about the culture of the Islamic world include the food - yummmmm! - the hospitality, the call of the muezzin (before they started using microphones!) and beautiful buildings. In fact, if you want to read my blog, here it is; http://www.travelblog.org/Africa/blog-87748.html :-)

Now, how does all this prove that Muhammad was not an inhumane and cruel genocidal psychopath?

the problem is this argument is very weak becauase it does not really address the long history of muslim societies and the history of those hadeeth, etc. if you did a really in depth thorough analysis of misogynism in muslim societies and how the muslim societies can improve themselves, that would be of value.

Excuses, excuses. If you are really interested in helping women - who are the needy in a lot of countries - then get rid of all ideologies where they are considered men's property, where they are treated like children and considered the worth of only half a man.

why not do something more constructive? why not point out all the good things which islam brought women of 7th century arabia? when you make concessions and make unbiased arugments, you can really do a lot of good for women in the islamic world and the secular world

Because I avoid using logical fallacies. If I am to point out that Muhammad turned women with no brains into women with half a brain, then i am using a logical fallacy. Because why didn't he change the situation from no brain to equal brain with men? What good is it to only do half the work? Women are still suppressed until they have full and equal rights as men, and are considered their equals.

That one even needs to "punish" his wife so that she remains faithful, shows great insecurities and backwardness that only increases misery, rather than addressing it. If a women or man cant' remain faithful, it shows they are either not mature enough for marriage yet, or have marital problems which needs counselling, not lashings or being kept in a room or being stoned to death.

If a woman, or a man, is only not engaging in extra marital affairs because they are scared of punishment, then that is not love, but fear.

Besides, I call polygamy "adultery".


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[mastralvarado]

Narnian, were you able to get the statistics for how many muslims are men and how many women are muslims yet?

Just so you know, I am still angry with you. about your previous thread.

BTW nice blog.

[barnasha]

the last and most important "prophet" of Christianity (the Son) did not act in ways that are inhumane, cruel or sinful. To the Christian-west, a true hero is never inhumane or cruel, even to achieve "good". No saint or apostle of Chrisitanity ever did evil or sinful deeds in order to achieve good.

"the Son" as part of a trinity is not part of the bible but post biblical doctrine. 'the son of man' and 'son of god' are not necessarily one person, for example israel is called the son of God in the bible, and psalms says we are all children of god.

so your referring to Jesus as "the Son" would not be precisely based on the contents of the Christian bible

"Christianity" is a cultural amalgam which postdates the jews Paul and Jesus

But the hero-archetype of the muslim world would be the most dangerous and destructive character the world could imagine. THAT is my main reason why I am so against Islam and it's hero-prophet.

you are aware that Moses and JEsus are prophets of Islam right?

why do you fail to distinguish between the 'muslim world' and Islam anyway? do you take the failings of the muslims as people to represent the faith of Islam? who do you hate more, Islam, or the muslims?

Islam is not a culture; it's an ideology. In fact, it's a christian-based cult. The "goodness" in Islam came not from different tenets of Islam, but from Christianity itself; the fragments which are embedded in the Koran.

"christian based" how?

which fragments are embedded in the quran?

there is another thread on this forum where someone tried to argue that and their argument wa ripped to shreds... you should go contribute to that thread and set the record straight

Good things about the culture of the Islamic world include the food - yummmmm! - the hospitality, the call of the muezzin (before they started using microphones!) and beautiful buildings. In fact, if you want to read my blog, here it is; http://www.travelblog.org/Africa/blog-87748.html :-)

the call of the muaththin doesn't sound good on a microphone?

seems you're confusing islamic culture with arabic culture, since the food is arabic, not islamic...

Now, how does all this prove that Muhammad was not an inhumane and cruel genocidal psychopath?

good question

how can you prove you're not a psychopath?

Excuses, excuses. If you are really interested in helping women - who are the needy in a lot of countries - then get rid of all ideologies where they are considered men's property, where they are treated like children and considered the worth of only half a man.

I suppose your fallacy might be well demonstrated if I point out that there is plenty of misogyny in predominantly christian countries. but I don't suppose that won't fall on deaf ears, since it doesn't quite mesh with your agenda..

Because I avoid using logical fallacies. If I am to point out that Muhammad turned women with no brains into women with half a brain, then i am using a logical fallacy. Because why didn't he change the situation from no brain to equal brain with men? What good is it to only do half the work? Women are still suppressed until they have full and equal rights as men, and are considered their equals.

so do you think women were better off in arabia before muhammad's time? because I would be shocked if you wanted to argue that

That one even needs to "punish" his wife so that she remains faithful, shows great insecurities and backwardness that only increases misery, rather than addressing it. If a women or man cant' remain faithful, it shows they are either not mature enough for marriage yet, or have marital problems which needs counselling, not lashings or being kept in a room or being stoned to death.

men should be punished for unfaithfulness too, and that is the case in the islamic teaching, where people should be whipped in public for sleeping around on their wife or husband.

honestly, I'm pretty progressive, but still, the idea doesn't sound half bad to me. :)

If a woman, or a man, is only not engaging in extra marital affairs because they are scared of punishment, then that is not love, but fear.

Besides, I call polygamy "adultery".
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polygamy was a pre-islamic arab custom which was actually discouraged with the advent of islam, as the quran says, one wife is better for you, because it's hard - if not impossible - to treat more than one woman equally

adultery and polygamy are a bit different concepts. one implies unfaithfulness.

[Narnian]

Hi mastralvarado,

Glad you liked my blog

As for getting you a total number of free men in the Islamic world, why can't you do this? You are probably better at maths than me and you don't have children to tend to. I am a busy mother of a special needs child.

So, why don't you go to that page of world statistics website referred to in that thread, and then add up the extra men of marital age in each Islamic country, then come back here with your results.

No cheating, though!


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