Women break silence on honour killings

[Narnian]

That is between your and your maker....

This is not Christian. There is no fatalism. You are saved - period.

whatever any human can 'prove' to you will not be relevant on the Last Day, when you are presented before the angels who recorded what you did and they will decide what to do with you

So it is salvation by works, which was exactly what I was saying.

Or do you think the Almighty bestows Its favor on those who spread iniquity on the earth?

I have answered this one already.

what are you trying to prove to yourself? That God doesn't care whether or not you sin, you're "special"?
This is dangerous, because you will let your guard down, and you will sin or err.
.

I have answered this one before, but perhaps not well enough. The Christian way is towards transcendence of sin, rather than "self discipline". I think this quantum leap in understanding shows Christianity's theological superiority. For example, the Koran recommends fasting so as to control lust. This is forced, and does not get rid of the root of the problem, because once you stop fasting, lust returns. It's like if I say to you; in the next five minutes you must not think about monkeys. The more you try to not think of monkeys the more you will see them.

But being the recipient of Godly love, forgiveness and assured salvation, those who are filled with these gifts will not sin. Noone would kill or commit adultery who had love in his heart. With Christ we are loved, forgiven and saved first. When we are forgiven, we act forgiven. When we are saved, we act saved. When we are filled with love, forgiveness and salvation, good deeds flow naturally.

Some more points on "not letting one's guard down" versus transcendence:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law but under Grace.
Rom 8:9 You are not controlled by sinful nature but by the Spirit

Koran: follow instructions
NT: develop virtues

Koran: do certain actions to please God
NT: God’s love creates certain actions

Koran: controls from the outside - 'discipline'
NT: transforms from the inside out - 'transcendence'.

1John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. ... 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

The writers of the NT put forward a compelling theological argument, consistently repeated throughout the NT, that following rules and living in bondage is inferior, and less effective, to living in love and virtue and letting that be our guide. When love fills our hearts we do not do the things the very rules/bondages were trying to stop us doing before Christ.

Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom

Alasdair Macintyre in "After Virtue: A Study of Moral Theory" argued that rather than a system of external rewards and punishments, an internal concern and formation of character, which leads to the ability to resist sin in vulnerable moments.

Luke 6 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies,.... Do to others as you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
Hebrews 5 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
James 4.1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?
Phi 1;9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best.

Conclusion: In Christ you can let your guard down and relax and be at peace because you know that His love will keep you on the straight path. You are not afraid if a 'monkey' appears in your mind - you just remember God's love and the monkey will get bored and go.

so in a sense, this verse is telling that God has control over everything and that we don't have to worry - anything bad that happens is only by God's will.
thus is God's vastness of love for us, that we may worship him, and even when we don't, or even when we disobey, (often) no calamity befalls us

This is Allah, not Theos. Satan does bad and Theos does good.

1Jo 1:5
God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

luke 6 43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. Figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of the heart produces good, and the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil; for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks

mark 10:18 No one is good but God alone.

1Jo 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love

Only God can redeem us, not me.

Only in Islam.

Mt 17:20 -
"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

[gharfish]

does orthodox imply correct?

"Correct" what ? I think you know what orthodox means, at least here in the context of my disussion with Narnian.

Do you know why--on what basis, specifically--Marcion was considered a heretic and countered by the church fathers of his day? Is Ahura Mazda as the OneJesus called his Father not wildly unorthodox ?! Because Jesus is Christ, if for no other reason, such a gross substituton is not Christian belief.

Thank you for your approval of my current by-line, though it's not mine (of course). I'm sharing the wisdom of another man: Lynn Anderson.

[barnasha]

"Correct" what ? I think you know what orthodox means, at least here in the context of my disussion with Narnian.

sorry, i meant to say "does orthodoxy imply correctness", i.e. validity outside the context of that orthodoxy

[barnasha]

This is not Christian. There is no fatalism. You are saved - period.

Saved from what? That is a vague, blanket statement. I am familiar with the common implications, but if you are communicating an idea, instead of parroting a slogan like a cheerleader...

Tell us what it means to be saved.

If I am "saved", what does that mean? That I no longer sin? That if i sin, it doesn't matter?

tell us

So it is salvation by works, which was exactly what I was saying.

what is "salvation by works", and what do you mean by that?

I have answered this one already.

It was a rhetorical question

I have answered this one before, but perhaps not well enough. The Christian way is towards transcendence of sin, rather than "self discipline". I think this quantum leap in understanding shows Christianity's theological superiority. For example, the Koran recommends fasting so as to control lust. This is forced, and does not get rid of the root of the problem, because once you stop fasting, lust returns. It's like if I say to you; in the next five minutes you must not think about monkeys. The more you try to not think of monkeys the more you will see them.

On the contrary, transcension of sin is at the core of Islam - not just theoretically but in practice. The muslims do not only talk about the theory of overcoming sin, but they also force themselves to actively practice it... like any good Christian.

If you knew more about the muslims, you might be surprised how much good that you do have in common.

But then, if you look for problems, you will find problems...

Seek and ye shall find...

“Righteousness is good character and sin is whatever bothers you and you do not want people to know.”

But being the recipient of Godly love, forgiveness and assured salvation, those who are filled with these gifts will not sin. Noone would kill or commit adultery who had love in his heart. With Christ we are loved, forgiven and saved first. When we are forgiven, we act forgiven. When we are saved, we act saved. When we are filled with love, forgiveness and salvation, good deeds flow naturally.

What is 'assured salvation', from whom is the assurance, and what are the stipulations?

Some more points on "not letting one's guard down" versus transcendence:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law but under Grace.
Rom 8:9 You are not controlled by sinful nature but by the Spirit

so you think you don't have to think about anything or guard yourself from doing misdeeds because you are perfect? don't you know that very arrogance is the stupidity that leads one into sin?

Paul taught that we should try to be good people, not just say "oh, I am good, I am good", but don't even pay attention to what you do?

God's grace is not a mere dogma for you the philosophize with, it is real, and you must do more than lip service to attain it

I can say "I am saved" and disrespect you, and you think because I say these words, my disrespect is approved by God?

Koran: follow instructions
NT: develop virtues

Jesus told us to follow instructions

Koran: do certain actions to please God
NT: God’s love creates certain actions

Did not Paul write: "Moreover, brethren, as you learnt from our lips the lives which you ought to live, and do live, so as to please God, we beg and exhort you in the name of the Lord Jesus to live them more and more truly."

?

Seems you are making some judgements about a bunch of texts with blanket statements which are unqualified by the texts

Koran: controls from the outside - 'discipline'
NT: transforms from the inside out - 'transcendence'.

the bible teaches me discipline

maybe you should come study with me, I can show you what I learned

1John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. ... 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

The writers of the NT put forward a compelling theological argument, consistently repeated throughout the NT, that following rules and living in bondage is inferior, and less effective, to living in love and virtue and letting that be our guide. When love fills our hearts we do not do the things the very rules/bondages were trying to stop us doing before Christ.

You seem to forget that most of that is Paul addressing the rigidity of the fossilization of the Jewish laws, something you are ironically doing yourself by trying to form doctrines out of what Paul wrote!

This is Allah, not Theos. Satan does bad and Theos does good.

theos = ilah
The Theos Of Abraham = allah

Only God can redeem us, not me.

Only in Islam.

Islam is obeying God and thus being redeemed. God is not Islam.

bible (Paul) disagrees with you, see my citation in that previous post!

Mt 17:20 -
"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

[Narnian]

Saved from what? That is a vague, blanket statement. I am familiar with the common implications, but if you are communicating an idea, instead of parroting a slogan like a cheerleader...
Tell us what it means to be saved.
If I am "saved", what does that mean? That I no longer sin? That if i sin, it doesn't matter?
tell us

In Christian theology (and this is straight out of bible college studies, not just my idea) you are saved into Zoe (spiritual life from the indwelling Holy Spirit) from Bios (solely physical life without the HS) .... and from mortality into immortality.

salvation http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/salvation
(religion) the process of being saved, the state of having been saved (from hell)
The process of being restored or made new for the purpose of becoming saved; the process of being rid of the old poor quality conditions and becoming improved.

As an interesting side note, this is the exact theology of Zarathustra in 1200BC, but not of Jehovah. Make what you like of that.

what is "salvation by works", and what do you mean by that?

It is conditional salvation, meaning that one earns one's salvation by following laws and accumulating a list of good works, ie donating money, doing the Haj or dying as a jihad martyr. The bible weighs heavily in favor of salvation by Grace and Assured Salvation.

Assured Salvation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_%28theology%29

On the contrary, transcension of sin is at the core of Islam - not just theoretically but in practice.

I would need more than a statement of opinion. Can you provide proof that overrides my conclusion that Islam is about discipline rather than transcendence?

The muslims do not only talk about the theory of overcoming sin, but they also force themselves to actively practice it... like any good Christian.

Just the use of the word "force" is enough to see that we are not on the same page here. You are attempting to do something that is impossible by human strength alone, ie "forcing" yourself to not sin etc. I think the Christian way is a paradigm shift - God comes to you and he transforms you from the inside out. It happened to me and it has happened to 1000s of others. This total transformation is a natural progression from sin (Bios) to Life (Zoe). No force is needed. In fact, force works against you - the more you strain the more the thing you are trying to avoid comes back to haunt you.

If you knew more about the muslims, you might be surprised how much good that you do have in common.

Don't worry - I know enough about muslims from my past and they were good people. However, the "good" is from Christianity and it needs to be acknowledged before this good can be completely internalized.

so you think you don't have to think about anything or guard yourself from doing misdeeds because you are perfect? don't you know that very arrogance is the stupidity that leads one into sin?

On the contrary, being freed from salvation by works and following the law, makes you more humble, because you can't brag that you earned this salvation - it was given freely as a gift of love to a sinner. You cannot boast to have achieved this yourself.

Paul taught that we should try to be good people, not just say "oh, I am good, I am good", but don't even pay attention to what you do?

You are omitting what I have already explained. We are all sinners, not good! You cannot save yourself or force yourself to be good, ie by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Sin is in our biological nature and it goes back 1000s of years - our instincts are sex and aggression. The only way we can get outside of that is in Zoe - Life in God.

God's grace is not a mere dogma for you the philosophize with, it is real, and you must do more than lip service to attain it

There is NO attaining of Grace - otherwise it would not be called GRACE.

In Christianity, divine grace refers to the sovereign favour of God for humankind — especially in regard to salvation — irrespective of actions ("deeds"), earned worth, or proven goodness.....is of central importance in the theology of Christianity....Grace is often distinguished from mercy in that mercy is seen as not receiving punishment that one deserves to receive, whereas grace is receiving a positive benefit that one does not deserve to receive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace

I really hope you get that book by Philip Yancey.

I can say "I am saved" and disrespect you, and you think because I say these words, my disrespect is approved by God?

I dont' understand this sentence. Please rephrase.

Jesus told us to follow instructions

No he didn't. Otherwise what's the point of Jesus coming? The OT had enough instruction in it to last a million years!!

Did not Paul write: "Moreover, brethren, as you learnt from our lips the lives which you ought to live, and do live, so as to please God, we beg and exhort you in the name of the Lord Jesus to live them more and more truly."
?
Seems you are making some judgements about a bunch of texts with blanket statements which are unqualified by the texts

These are not "rules". The NT was not "sent down" by God. This is a huge misunderstanding amongst muslims - their own Koran is read completely differently to the NT. The NT is not a rule book - it is an exhortation, using Paul's words. It was written by passionate Greeks who used literary devices like hyperbole and euphemism to portray that which is impossible to put into words. They were not channelling God's voice or an angel, they were writing straight out of a heart that was transformed by God.

the bible teaches me discipline

maybe you should come study with me, I can show you what I learned

That the OT is instructions and disciplines?

Who are you studying under and which books are you using?

You seem to forget that most of that is Paul addressing the rigidity of the fossilization of the Jewish laws, something you are ironically doing yourself by trying to form doctrines out of what Paul wrote!

The NT is NOT a "doctrine" and Christianity does not stop at the NT. The goal of the Christian is the experience of the living Christ, not doctrine!!

theos = ilah
The Theos Of Abraham = allah

Islam is obeying God and thus being redeemed. God is not Islam.

Agreed.

Christianity is being redeemed and thus naturally (ie unforced) obeying God. Significant difference.

bible (Paul) disagrees with you, see my citation in that previous post!

which citation and what doesn't he agree with?

[Narnian]

The origins of Theos - the God of the NT:

Etymological origins are revealing. You can verify this in many places:

Dyaus (Vedic) > Zeus > Theos (Christ's God)

Dyaus (Vedic) >Asura (later Vedic) > Ahura (Zarathustra's God)

So, Ahura Mazda and Theos are derived from the same origins.

YHWH originates most likely from the YEH god in Eygpt (see Wiki entry). El was another god of bronze age Judea from which 'Allah' is derived.

From New Advent Catholic encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608x.htm

Indo-Iranian deva, Sanskrit dyaus (gen. divas), Latin deus, Greek theos, Irish and Gaelic dia, all of which are generic names; also Greek Zeus .....

The common name most widely used in Semitic occurs as 'el in Hebrew, 'ilu in Babylonian, 'ilah in Arabic, etc.; and though scholars are not agreed on the point, the root-meaning most probably is "the strong or mighty one."

The english word "God" originates from Persian Khoda, and was brought across Germany (Gotta) to the UK by the Persian knights, employed by the Roman empire. There are old ruins of Mithra (a Zoroastrian sect) temples at Hadrian's Wall in Scotland.


-

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you Narnian,

So I want to ask you about salvation:

If I "believe" that jesus died for me and that he is savior, that means I get salvation right? Or if I am a christian, then I get salvation by the grace of God. So what is the difference between sinning and doing good if ultimately they result in salvation?

I can go out and commit any sins I want, and still get salvation. And if you say that I can't sin purposefully or that I won't attain salvation by doing so, then you are saying one must refrain from sin and that is the same as following rules. So if I call myself a christian and really believe in Jesus, but I decide to lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. That's ok right? If not, then I must follow rules.

[Narnian]

Hi Moose,
I answered that question in this thread.

Here it is again:

The Christian way is towards transcendence of sin, rather than "self discipline". Instead of imposing disciplinary measures to keep you 'in control', Christianity seeks to radically transform you from the inside. I think this quantum leap in understanding shows Christianity's theological superiority. For example, the Koran recommends fasting so as to control lust. This is forced, and does not get rid of the root of the problem, because once you stop fasting, lust returns. It's like if I say to you; in the next five minutes you must not think about monkeys. The more you try to not think of monkeys the more you will see them.

But being the recipient of Godly love, forgiveness and assured salvation, those who are filled with these gifts will not sin. Noone would kill or commit adultery who had love in his heart. With Christ we are loved, forgiven and saved first. When we are forgiven, we act forgiven. When we are saved, we act saved. When we are filled with love, forgiveness and salvation, good deeds flow naturally.

Some more points on "not letting one's guard down" versus transcendence:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law but under Grace.
Rom 8:9 You are not controlled by sinful nature but by the Spirit

Koran: follow instructions
NT: develop virtues

Koran: do certain actions to please God
NT: God’s love creates certain actions

Koran: controls from the outside - 'discipline'
NT: transforms from the inside out - 'transcendence'.

1John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. ... 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

The writers of the NT put forward a compelling theological argument, consistently repeated throughout the NT, that following rules and living in bondage is inferior, and less effective, to living in love and virtue and letting that be our guide. When love fills our hearts we do not do the things the very rules/bondages were trying to stop us doing before Christ.

Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom

Alasdair Macintyre in "After Virtue: A Study of Moral Theory" argued that rather than a system of external rewards and punishments, an internal concern and formation of character, which leads to the ability to resist sin in vulnerable moments.

Luke 6 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies,.... Do to others as you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
Hebrews 5 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
James 4.1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?
Phi 1;9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best.

Conclusion: In Christ you can let your guard down and relax and be at peace because you know that His love will keep you on the straight path. You are not afraid if a 'monkey' appears in your mind - you just remember God's love and the monkey will get bored and go.

[barnasha]

salvation in terms of redemption from our sins is not guaranteed by a particular dogma. we must repent

salvation in terms of getting paradise from God is dependent on being a good person - not just accepting a belief system that defines yourself a a good person.

the so called "islamic" terrorists think they are "saved" from the Fire because they believe a certain way - but that's not the case. God will judge us all, regardless of our belief system.

in short, "saving" is God's job - not ours. You do not punish yourself with the eternal Fire, you do not get to choose who gets to return to paradise - if so, sin would be gone from the earth

[Narnian]

salvation in terms of redemption from our sins is not guaranteed by a particular dogma. we must repent. salvation in terms of getting paradise from God is dependent on being a good person - not just accepting a belief system that defines yourself a a good person.

So salvation is not by Grace but by works and character. That's the difference that I've been pointing out and you keep agreeing!

the so called "islamic" terrorists think they are "saved" from the Fire because they believe a certain way - but that's not the case. God will judge us all, regardless of our belief system.

They get their inspiration from reading Allah's holy books, and their position is the correct one. Muhammad said his muslims had to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, chop off body parts and heads etc.

in short, "saving" is God's job - not ours.

But he doesn't save you unconditionally, does he?

You do not punish yourself with the eternal Fire, you do not get to choose who gets to return to paradise - if so, sin would be gone from the earth

Huh? sin would go from the world if we could choose our own style of life after death? Non capisco.


.

[barnasha]

So salvation is not by Grace but by works and character. That's the difference that I've been pointing out and you keep agreeing!

you still keep referring to a certain 'salvation' without qualifying exactly what you mean, so your thought as communicated to those around you might be vague if not incomplete.

They get their inspiration from reading Allah's holy books, and their position is the correct one. Muhammad said his muslims had to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, chop off body parts and heads etc.

Who taught you this? Did they also teaching you such things as the saying of the prophet Muhammad, who said:

"A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally'"

and

"Do not mutilate even a wild dog (the dog that bites people without being provoked)."

But he doesn't save you unconditionally, does he?

save me from what, myself?

Huh? sin would go from the world if we could choose our own style of life after death? Non capisco.

no, if you have the power to bestow upon yourself an eternal abode in paradise or hell, then why would you need to worship God? why would you even need to worry about sin? why would you still be living in this world, why not go to paradise now?

[Narnian]

you still keep referring to a certain 'salvation' without qualifying exactly what you mean

You've asked this question twice and I have given you a very generous answer, clear, detailed and explained fully. Now, why do you keep asking the same question?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Christianity you are saved by Grace .... in Islam you might be saved by works.

I think even you agree on this major theological difference between Ch and I.

"A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally'"

and

"Do not mutilate even a wild dog (the dog that bites people without being provoked)."

And this is precisely whey Islamic scriptures are a problem - there are too many different ideas opposing each other. In one verse you slay infidels wherever you find them and a few verses later you don't slay. Then in one verse you chop off heads and body parts, ie fingertips, and in the next one you don't even mutitlate a dog. So, as the brain naturally seeks harmony, and these are just some of many examples of unharmonious teachings in the Koran, it fools itself into thinking that ALL is good. So, you end up calling evil good and good evil.

It is at this point the human has sold his soul and his intellect, and is a slave.

save me from what, myself?

There you go again - that's 3 times you have asked that question; at least!

no, if you have the power to bestow upon yourself an eternal abode in paradise or hell, then why would you need to worship God? why would you even need to worry about sin? why would you still be living in this world, why not go to paradise now?

So are you saying that, if Allah did not offer a reward of heaven or threatened you with hell, you would sin? If so, then your "goodness" is bogus.


-

[barnasha]

You've asked this question twice and I have given you a very generous answer, clear, detailed and explained fully. Now, why do you keep asking the same question?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Christianity you are saved by Grace .... in Islam you might be saved by works.

I think even you agree on this major theological difference between Ch and I.

I am not asking Christianity, I am asking you.

If you cannot speak in plain English, it is not worth having a discussion

I am not Christianity, I am a critical thinker, the kind that existed before Christianity and the kind that existed before Jesus's birth by Mary

And this is precisely whey Islamic scriptures are a problem - there are too many different ideas opposing each other. In one verse you slay infidels wherever you find them and a few verses later you don't slay. Then in one verse you chop off heads and body parts, ie fingertips, and in the next one you don't even mutitlate a dog. So, as the brain naturally seeks harmony, and these are just some of many examples of unharmonious teachings in the Koran, it fools itself into thinking that ALL is good. So, you end up calling evil good and good evil.

It is at this point the human has sold his soul and his intellect, and is a slave.

Some people actually study these texts instead of just read a few propoganda websites and claim the text is 'a problem'.

If you had done the least bit of scientific analysis, your opinions might be somehow well-formed.

I, the one who has studied this information academically, have complete harmony, whereas you are spending your time on this forum causing strife, insulting others, talking about how evil they are.

where is the harmony in that?

if you had internal harmony, you would say beautiful things likes Jesus did on the mount of olives

you are what you see in others

There you go again - that's 3 times you have asked that question; at least!

yet you have still not taken the cue to explain what you mean, to properly communicate, something that I can only conclude you do not wish to do.

don't evade my question by looking down at me!

when you look down on others, supposing to make yourself better, in the end, you are considered below them.

which is the meaning of "blessed are the persecuted, for theirs is the kingdom..."

don't persecute, intellectually or physically, be the persecuted, take up YOUR cross, daily, only then will you have any reason to look down on anyone else.

So are you saying that, if Allah did not offer a reward of heaven or threatened you with hell, you would sin? If so, then your "goodness" is bogus.

-

no. the question was " if you have the power to bestow upon yourself an eternal abode in paradise or hell, then why would you need to worship God? why would you even need to worry about sin? why would you still be living in this world, why not go to paradise now? "

if you could not get kicked out of the garden, then what would sin be?

[Narnian]

I am asking you.

What is wrong with this reply below?

In Christian theology you are saved into Zoe (spiritual life from the indwelling Holy Spirit) from Bios (solely physical life without the HS) .... and from mortality into immortality.

salvation http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/salvation
(religion) the process of being saved, the state of having been saved (from hell)
The process of being restored or made new for the purpose of becoming saved; the process of being rid of the old poor quality conditions and becoming improved.

If you cannot speak in plain English, it is not worth having a discussion

What dont' you understand about that sentence???

I am not Christianity, I am a critical thinker, the kind that existed before Christianity and the kind that existed before Jesus's birth by Mary

How is that relevant to the points we are discussing?

Some people actually study these texts instead of just read a few propoganda websites and claim the text is 'a problem'.

Logical Fallacy alert! I think that's the 'No True Scotsman' one.

If you had done the least bit of scientific analysis, your opinions might be somehow well-formed.

Likewise, if you stop using logical fallacies and start taking me from what I say and showing me how I am wrong, you might even convince me, but so far I get nothing in return from you.

I, the one who has studied this information academically, have complete harmony, whereas you are spending your time on this forum causing strife, insulting others, talking about how evil they are.

Total Logical Fallacy. You have not even addressed my claims except by Ad Hominen and the likes.

if you had internal harmony, you would say beautiful things likes Jesus did on the mount of olives

And pretend that Muhammad was a nice little man who brought love and peace? The NT tells us to HATE what is evil and LOVE what is good. The opposite of love is indifference, ie sweeping things under the carpet. Hate has energy - indifference is dead. I hate Islam because I love humanity.

you are what you see in others

interesting counter-projection - there you are calling me an insulter, lacking inner harmony, a 'strife causer" and slanderer, and you say we are what we see in others

yet you have still not taken the cue to explain what you mean, to properly communicate, something that I can only conclude you do not wish to do.

I am MORE than happy to explain myself, but I really need you to at least explain what you don't get about my statement on what Salvation is above. I love this subject, so please ask anything and I will respond with enthusiasm. But until I know which part doesn't make sense, I am left confused.

don't evade my question by looking down at me! when you look down on others, supposing to make yourself better, in the end, you are considered below them.

You need to back this up with evidence. What in my post have I said that led you to believe this??

Debate is not to be taken personally.

no. the question was " if you have the power to bestow upon yourself an eternal abode in paradise or hell, then why would you need to worship God? why would you even need to worry about sin? why would you still be living in this world, why not go to paradise now? "
if you could not get kicked out of the garden, then what would sin be?

My reply is the same. I will ask you a question: If there was no afterlife would you still follow Allah? Or would you then indulge all your instincts and baser desires?


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[barnasha]

What is wrong with this reply below?

In Christian theology you are saved into Zoe (spiritual life from the indwelling Holy Spirit) from Bios (solely physical life without the HS) .... and from mortality into immortality.

salvation http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/salvation
(religion) the process of being saved, the state of having been saved (from hell)
The process of being restored or made new for the purpose of becoming saved; the process of being rid of the old poor quality conditions and becoming improved.

are you a person? I was asking you, not "christian theology"

be yourself, for once


apparently you do not wish to talk, you just want to paste definitions from the internet - i.e. your position is not yours but the one you copy from 'whatever someone else says'

i don't want to talk to a parrot...

What dont' you understand about that sentence???



How is that relevant to the points we are discussing?



Logical Fallacy alert! I think that's the 'No True Scotsman' one.

your smug attitude further compromises your credibility... even if you're right, you'll still come off as a schmuck

Likewise, if you stop using logical fallacies and start taking me from what I say and showing me how I am wrong, you might even convince me, but so far I get nothing in return from you.

Total Logical Fallacy. You have not even addressed my claims except by Ad Hominen and the likes.

you always resort to claiming a logical fallacy is used when a problem is pointed out with your argument.

ironically, that is logical fallacy in itself.

And pretend that Muhammad was a nice little man who brought love and peace? The NT tells us to HATE what is evil and LOVE what is good. The opposite of love is indifference, ie sweeping things under the carpet. Hate has energy - indifference is dead. I hate Islam because I love humanity.



interesting counter-projection - there you are calling me an insulter, lacking inner harmony, a 'strife causer" and slanderer, and you say we are what we see in others



I am MORE than happy to explain myself, but I really need you to at least explain what you don't get about my statement on what Salvation is above. I love this subject, so please ask anything and I will respond with enthusiasm. But until I know which part doesn't make sense, I am left confused.

if by 'explain yourself' you mean copy and paste some philosophical definition for some word you used, leaving the person in the conversation wondering why is he talking to you when you keep telling him you don't want to talk, i.e. "go to the library, I don't have anything new to say"

You need to back this up with evidence. What in my post have I said that led you to believe this??

Debate is not to be taken personally.

why make statements using terms which may or may not mean something in a certain philosophical or theological context (i.e. 'salvation'), and assume the person you're talking to is going to somehow consider your words according to some de facto philosophical genre?

I talk about things in plain English, I don't need to link you to any website to explain my words, I am a simple person and I can debate things up front and clearly. It makes conversation much easier

My reply is the same. I will ask you a question: If there was no afterlife would you still follow Allah? Or would you then indulge all your instincts and baser desires?


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you have not replied to the question, so your reply remains a non-reply...

'after' and 'before' don't matter, what matters is what you are doing right now, at one point, the day of judgment will not be in the 'future' anymore.