The Baldie Vs Mariology

[Leonhard]

Mary was blessed because she keep the word of God. ". . . Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." And without question our yet to be born Savior was blessed too. So indeed she was also blessed being the one to give birth to our Lord [the man] who would be our Savior. So the one blessing Mary had, "heard the word of God and kept it," is a blessing that all true believers can partake.

Except that grace was abundantly with her, in a way its been with no other believer on Earth. No one else will be able to say that they had such a close relationship with Christ.

If you believe in original sin, and that humans inherit the sin of their parents, which has to be washed away with baptism, then Mary must have been without the stain of sin by the time she had Jesus. If she had sinned, she - like Eve - would be under judgment and then Christ would have been born guilty of Original Sin, which is impossible. Grace was given to her abundantly so that was she born not only without the stain of sin, but she was kept from sinning (at least until she had Christ, though likely throughout her life). This gift of grace alone would make her the greatest Christian. However she also took part intimately in the salvation of all of humanity, and she got to suffer horrible as Simeon told her in his prophecy ("...And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34), when she got to behold the passion and death of her Son.

She's also the only human to have ever been hailed by an angel "Hail, full of grace!" That 'full of grace' being the title she's given. Look up any other prophet in the Old Testament, and notice the difference in how the angel interacts with them.

I think Mary's significance is severely underplayed in a lot of protestant theology, without this being necessary. Luther himself held Mary in a very high regard.

Calling on the dead is witchcraft. Remember king Saul. For which God really sent Samuel the prophet.

Praying to the saints has as much to do with witchcraft, as calling on the Holy Spirit has to do with shamanism.

It is not at issue that we can pray for each other. But as to our access to God, it is through Christ alone (John 14:6).

Who do you think the saints are praying to?

[Paprika]

If you believe in original sin, and that humans inherit the sin of their parents, which has to be washed away with baptism, then Mary must have been without the stain of sin by the time she had Jesus. If she had sinned, she - like Eve - would be under judgment and then Christ would have been born guilty of Original Sin, which is impossible. Grace was given to her abundantly so that was she born not only without the stain of sin, but she was kept from sinning (at least until she had Christ, though likely throughout her life).

And why couldn't Jesus have been born without sin just like Mary supposedly was, without Mary being sinless?

[Cerebrum123]

Wait, if Mary had to be born without sin, in order to produce Christ without the stain of sin, wouldn't that process be needed since the time of Adam and Eve? I'm thinking that this view of Original Sin is flawed.

[Spartacus]

Wait, if Mary had to be born without sin, in order to produce Christ without the stain of sin, wouldn't that process be needed since the time of Adam and Eve? I'm thinking that this view of Original Sin is flawed.

Of course it is. The most common Catholic argument isn't that, in order for a person to be born without sin, they have to be born of someone without sin. It's not that it was necessary, but rather that it was appropriate. Duns Scotus' famous argument was "potuit, decuit, ergo fecit". God could do it, it was fitting for God to do it, so God did it.

[Paprika]

And how was it appropriate?

[One Bad Pig]

Of course it is. The most common Catholic argument isn't that, in order for a person to be born without sin, they have to be born of someone without sin. It's not that it was necessary, but rather that it was appropriate. Duns Scotus' famous argument was "potuit, decuit, ergo fecit". God could do it, it was fitting for God to do it, so God did it.

Without the Augustinian concept of Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception would be wholly unnecessary.

[Paprika]

Without the Augustinian concept of Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception would be wholly unnecessary.

Even with the concept, Immaculate Conception is wholly unnecessary.

[Cerebrum123]

Of course it is. The most common Catholic argument isn't that, in order for a person to be born without sin, they have to be born of someone without sin. It's not that it was necessary, but rather that it was appropriate. Duns Scotus' famous argument was "potuit, decuit, ergo fecit". God could do it, it was fitting for God to do it, so God did it.

Tell that to Leonhard.

If you believe in original sin, and that humans inherit the sin of their parents, which has to be washed away with baptism, then Mary must have been without the stain of sin by the time she had Jesus. If she had sinned, she - like Eve - would be under judgment and then Christ would have been born guilty of Original Sin, which is impossible. Grace was given to her abundantly so that was she born not only without the stain of sin, but she was kept from sinning (at least until she had Christ, though likely throughout her life).

Emphasis mine.

[Spartacus]

Tell that to Leonhard.

Emphasis mine.

Sure. I don't blame Leonhard for not being quite so familiar with the intricacies of Catholic apologetics as I am... or, rather, used to be. If you'd asked me a year or two ago, I probably would have been able to rattle off a quick answer about this, but now I'd have to research the question again, which, given that I have midterms coming up, isn't feasible in the near future.

[Cerebrum123]

Sure. I don't blame Leonhard for not being quite so familiar with the intricacies of Catholic apologetics as I am... or, rather, used to be. If you'd asked me a year or two ago, I probably would have been able to rattle off a quick answer about this, but now I'd have to research the question again, which, given that I have midterms coming up, isn't feasible in the near future.

Fair enough. Do a good job on those midterms.

[Spartacus]

Even with the concept, Immaculate Conception is wholly unnecessary.

Of course it isn't necessary-- if it were, could we call it grace? Nothing God does with respect to us is necessary-- creation and redemption alike are gratuitous acts by God. We don't deserve it, and God doesn't have to do it, but God does it because that's the sort of Being God is. I'd give a more sophisticated answer (I think Leonhard would call this an example of my most frustrating mode of discourse), but again, midterms.

[One Bad Pig]

Even with the concept, Immaculate Conception is wholly unnecessary.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Without Augustine's formulation of Original Sin, there would be no dogma of the Immaculate Conception; it's what spurred its development in the first place.

[37818]

Except that grace was abundantly with her, in a way its been with no other believer on Earth. No one else will be able to say that they had such a close relationship with Christ.

Even so, it is my understanding she needed salvation just like anyone else.

If you believe in original sin, and that humans inherit the sin of their parents, . . .

My understanding of "original sin" was "good" Adam's disobedience. What we inherit on account of original sin, is God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22) which in man is the cause of mankind to have a sinful nature. (Romans 5:12.)

. . . which has to be washed away with baptism,. . .

I do not see how the inherited knowledge of good and evil is washed away with baptism, seeing that baptized people continue to sin. My understanding baptism, immersion in water symbolizes one's burial with Christ in His death, signifying that the believer (believer's baptism) is no longer going to live for the world, but live for God.

. . . . then Mary must have been without the stain of sin by the time she had Jesus. . . .

I do not see that as true (Luke 3:23-38). And for that matter on the account of Christ's deity, was never any kind of necessity. Furthermore Jesus having pre-existed as the Logos, as God. And was the one who walked in the garden (Genesis 3:8, John 1:18). So the knowledge of good and evil was of His divine knowledge as God. (see Mark 10:18.)

. . . If she had sinned, she - like Eve - would be under judgment and then Christ would have been born guilty of Original Sin, . . .

Not according to God's law. (compare Ezekiel 18:20.)

Praying to the saints has as much to do with witchcraft, as calling on the Holy Spirit has to do with shamanism.
Who do you think the saints are praying to?

Our views here do not agree. It is my view that the saints that pray for others are the now living believers. I do not hold the view of sainthood of the Roman Catholic church on this matter.

[The Remonstrant]

Without the Augustinian concept of Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception would be wholly unnecessary.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Without Augustine's formulation of Original Sin, there would be no dogma of the Immaculate Conception; it's what spurred its development in the first place.

That's true. Good observation.

[foudroyant]

Have you ever asked another person to pray for you? That's what you do in the Salve Regina. You ask Mary the mother of Jesus, to pray to her Son for you.

Read the Salve Regina, what do you think?

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
hail our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
℣ Pray for us O holy Mother of God,
℟ that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray:
Almighty, everlasting God, who by the co-operation of the Holy Spirit didst prepare the body and soul of the glorious Virgin-Mother Mary to become a dwelling-place meet for thy Son: grant that as we rejoice in her commemoration; so by her fervent intercession we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

If Mary can fully know all the prayers (even the silent ones) rendered unto her by a myriad number of people (often at the same time) that would require her to be the heart knower which is the same thing being omniscient (God).
See Post 1 Part B:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F

This is why I wrote in Post #6 that prayer/worship is due unto God alone.