Zoroastrianism and Jewish Theology

[Dracula Girl]

I am doing a paper on hell and I was reading in an article that there are many beliefs in Judaism that are shared or were influenced by Zoroastrianism as argued by various scholars. Influential or shared beliefs include the omnis in describing God, Satan, eternal torment in hell, angelology and demonolgy, and the first eschatology preceding works such as Daniel.

Because I am attempting to address the relationship in a paper on hell, I have come to a serious question about this. How much did the Zoroastrianism influence Judaism? What are noteworthy examples of discerning rejection of Zoroastrianism's influence in Judaism? The only good example I have of this is the deuterocannonical books which is debatable.

(If you know of a website with an article that deals with this and would like to share, that would be great.)

[LostSheep]

Anastasia,

From what I read in a quick look-up on the web, Zoroastrianism originated in the 6th century BC, and quite a large and important part of the OT dates from before this time. Some scholars say that Judaism inherited things from Babylon (and thus Zoroastrianism) during the exile, but how many important books of the Bible predate the exile? And, I read that Judaism inherited the concept of Satan from Zoroastrianism, but Satan was introduced in Genesis, which seems to most to predate the exile in written form.

[mikeledo]

Satan is NEVER mentioned in Genisis.

The Jews didn't have a "hell." I see far more similarities between Zoroastrian hell and Christian hell and to the book of Revelation.

[shunyadragon]

Anastasia,

From what I read in a quick look-up on the web, Zoroastrianism originated in the 6th century BC, and quite a large and important part of the OT dates from before this time. Some scholars say that Judaism inherited things from Babylon (and thus Zoroastrianism) during the exile, but how many important books of the Bible predate the exile? And, I read that Judaism inherited the concept of Satan from Zoroastrianism, but Satan was introduced in Genesis, which seems to most to predate the exile in written form.

I know of no written OT text that predates the Dead Sea scrolls except for on silver prayer scroll. At present the OT text cannot be extrapolated beyond ~600 BC

[Soyeong]

(If you know of a website with an article that deals with this and would like to share, that would be great.)

JPH has an article here.

[shunyadragon]

I am doing a paper on hell and I was reading in an article that there are many beliefs in Judaism that are shared or were influenced by Zoroastrianism as argued by various scholars. Influential or shared beliefs include the omnis in describing God, Satan, eternal torment in hell, angelology and demonolgy, and the first eschatology preceding works such as Daniel.

Because I am attempting to address the relationship in a paper on hell, I have come to a serious question about this. How much did the Zoroastrianism influence Judaism? What are noteworthy examples of discerning rejection of Zoroastrianism's influence in Judaism? The only good example I have of this is the deuterocannonical books which is debatable.

(If you know of a website with an article that deals with this and would like to share, that would be great.)

There is good evidence that there is a relationship between Zorastrian and Jewish theology, but it is not conclusive. To understand it you have to do some searching of different sources on the internet and serious historical library research.

You also have to put asside religious bias and look objectively at the evidence. It appears you allready have a negative bias toward such a relationship. You also should probably develop a good understanding of the over all history and evolution of the cultures and religions in the Middle East from the Neolithic up through the age of the Roman Empire. What is the current historical assessment of Middle Eastern religions is that the different tribes of the Neolithic Middle East including Egypt have a relationship, and shared myths and legends like the flood, and religious beliefs. These beliefs became more recognizable as religions in the Bronze and Iron Age, and as writting developed. Prior to the the Dead Sea scrolls, we little to nothing of written Jewish heratage, thus we have to rely on Egyptian and Babylonian/Sumerian written records and archeology to piece things together. From the evidence the Babylonian captivity appears to be a very important period for the development of the theology of Judaism.

[shunyadragon]

JPH has an article here.

JPH offeres a rather bias, sarcastic and negative view of any relationship between Judaism and Zorastrianism other than promoting the belief that Zorastrianism got its beliefs from Judeo-Christian sources. The main problem here is again. there are no Jewish texts available to document this prior to the Dead Sea scrolls to supoort this assertion.

JPH does cite some good facts and history of early Zorastrianism, but his radical bias predisposes any objective assessment of the evidence available.

[mikeledo]

I know of no written OT text that predates the Dead Sea scrolls except for on silver prayer scroll. At present the OT text cannot be extrapolated beyond ~600 BC

I would claim the OT text dates to circa 2100 BCE. It has detailed knowledge of people and events of the Early Bronze Age and has the same cosmic myth characteristics of that era. I would contend that the text was expanded in an identical fashion as was Gilgamesh to give it an appearance of Iron Age or late construction. This accounts for chronology and contracdiction problems within the text. The same problem arises in Gilgamesh due to people adding text.

[yoki]

I am doing a paper on hell and I was reading in an article that there are many beliefs in Judaism that are shared or were influenced by Zoroastrianism as argued by various scholars. Influential or shared beliefs include the omnis in describing God, Satan, eternal torment in hell, angelology and demonolgy, and the first eschatology preceding works such as Daniel.

Because I am attempting to address the relationship in a paper on hell, I have come to a serious question about this. How much did the Zoroastrianism influence Judaism? What are noteworthy examples of discerning rejection of Zoroastrianism's influence in Judaism? The only good example I have of this is the deuterocannonical books which is debatable.

(If you know of a website with an article that deals with this and would like to share, that would be great.)

The issue is not so much as to how much Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism, but rather, how much Zoroastrianism influenced Christianity. If you take the time to study Zoroastrianism, you will find that Christianity holds many similar views particularly in the area of eschatology. Judaism was merely a vehicle in the tranportation of these beliefs.

You will find this Jewish vehicle in some of the Jewish apocalyptic literature in the deuterocanonical books. Esdras II comes to mind immediately.

Read the first Book of Enoch. Therein you will find the "missing link." The Jews rejected this book because it was too close to Christian beliefs. The Christians rejected this book too, but because it was too close to Jewish beliefs. The expression of beliefs in first Enoch are undeniably Zoroastrian.

You aren't going to get anywhere in this area until you study Zoroastrianism. Just the very study of it will reveal those truths that might shake your faith to the core, if you are a Christian.

As for a link that might help you, here are several:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...+Judaism&meta=

[shunyadragon]

I would claim the OT text dates to circa 2100 BCE. It has detailed knowledge of people and events of the Early Bronze Age and has the same cosmic myth characteristics of that era. I would contend that the text was expanded in an identical fashion as was Gilgamesh to give it an appearance of Iron Age or late construction. This accounts for chronology and contracdiction problems within the text. The same problem arises in Gilgamesh due to people adding text.

It is very unlikely that the OT text itself dates much older than ~600 - 880 BC, but it is likely a patchwork of evolved and edited myths, tales, and oral history primarily from Babylonian, Sumarian and Egyptian sources. It also contains parts that are obviously simply created text to bring things together.

Gilgamesh is much better documented text, and probably stands alone as evolved from an oral epic. There are many tablets from many sources over a considerable length of time that document the type of changes an ancient oral story goes through. On the other hand OT books clearly show a patchwork where different early documents are patched together.

[mikeledo]

It is very unlikely that the OT text itself dates much older than ~600 - 880 BC, but it is likely a patchwork of evolved and edited myths, tales, and oral history primarily from Babylonian, Sumarian and Egyptian sources. It also contains parts that are obviously simply created text to bring things together.

Gilgamesh is much better documented text, and probably stands alone as evolved from an oral epic. There are many tablets from many sources over a considerable length of time that document the type of changes an ancient oral story goes through. On the other hand OT books clearly show a patchwork where different early documents are patched together.

It all depends on what you call "Old Testament text." The text was still undergoing changes at the time of the DSS. It was written as a living document and was expanded using the same identical techniques as was Gilgamesh. I have been able to "deconstruct" the Bible by reversing those techniques to come up with a subtext, or proto-Old Testament. That text is an apparent cosmic myth from the Early Bronze Age. Text which was added was baed on Middle Bronze Age and Iron Age events. Much of the text was written after the Greek influence as it is clear that their view of the constellations had prevailed.

This additional text lead to Bible contradictions as it did in Gilgamesh.

I would claim that the modern text is no older than the DSS themselves, but the subtext upon which it was constructed is far far older.

I have been able to identify that text.

[shunyadragon]

It all depends on what you call "Old Testament text." The text was still undergoing changes at the time of the DSS. It was written as a living document and was expanded using the same identical techniques as was Gilgamesh. I have been able to "deconstruct" the Bible by reversing those techniques to come up with a subtext, or proto-Old Testament. That text is an apparent cosmic myth from the Early Bronze Age. Text which was added was baed on Middle Bronze Age and Iron Age events. Much of the text was written after the Greek influence as it is clear that their view of the constellations had prevailed.

This additional text lead to Bible contradictions as it did in Gilgamesh.

I would claim that the modern text is no older than the DSS themselves, but the subtext upon which it was constructed is far far older.

I have been able to identify that text.

I would conditionally agree to your rewording of the claim the OT text is possibly older. I am doing similar research as you. I do believe that books like Exodus were essentially rewriten based on older stories, exaggerated and created stories for socio-political reasons. Many books of the OT, particularly the Pentateoch, are more a patchwork of different sources than Gilgamesh is. Eventhough Gilgamesh evolved and has contradictions, it has a more consistent pedigree of an oral legend that evolved into writen epic based on actual archeological finds.

My main argument concerning the OT is centered on the various different Christian claims concerning the OT, which in general claim that the actual text and authorship is older than ~600-800 BC, and dates to the actual time of the stories and records.

[mikeledo]

I would conditionally agree to your rewording of the claim the OT text is possibly older. I am doing similar research as you. I do believe that books like Exodus were essentially rewriten based on older stories, exaggerated and created stories for socio-political reasons. Many books of the OT, particularly the Pentateoch, are more a patchwork of different sources than Gilgamesh is. Eventhough Gilgamesh evolved and has contradictions, it has a more consistent pedigree of an oral legend that evolved into writen epic based on actual archeological finds.

My main argument concerning the OT is centered on the various different Christian claims concerning the OT, which in general claim that the actual text and authorship is older than ~600-800 BC, and dates to the actual time of the stories and records.

In regards to Moses, there were at least two additions to the text. The original one would have been EB III. It is in this text Moses looks like Sargon and Marduk. It contains the basic cosmic myth of the Eridanus, Pleiades, Cetus, Aries and the Band. It is so easy to follow a cave man could do it.

The appears to have been a later Bronze Age addition and then an Iron Age addition which added cities such as Heshbon.

The politics changes from age to age and redactors reflect that. So what is politics in one era is not in another. I have identified the politics of the EB III era that was in the original text. It is the same as in Gilgamesh, although the view point is opposing. Gigamesh and David are cosmic representations of the same real king, Naram Sin, grandson of Sargon.

Text was added during the reign of Hammurabi, who is called Solomon in the Bible. This is NOT cosmic myth, but real history of his court. I have been able to identify several of the historic players in that group, including the pharaoh.

The Greco-Roman era saw the last of these changes. I would contend the DSS may well be "signature" copies. Many stories such as the blessings of the 12 sons of Jacob reflect an astrology/cosmic myth that could have only had been created after being exposed to the Greek view of the cosmic myth. The original Hebrew zodiac had 10 signs. They would have been exposed to a 12 sign zodiac under Babylon, but most likely their 12 sign zodiac came from the Greeks and most likely after they broke up the constellation Asad. This would but that writing well after the 600 BCE period, closer to 200 BCE, a very political time frame.

[shunyadragon]

In regards to Moses, there were at least two additions to the text. The original one would have been EB III. It is in this text Moses looks like Sargon and Marduk. It contains the basic cosmic myth of the Eridanus, Pleiades, Cetus, Aries and the Band. It is so easy to follow a cave man could do it.

The appears to have been a later Bronze Age addition and then an Iron Age addition which added cities such as Heshbon.

The politics changes from age to age and redactors reflect that. So what is politics in one era is not in another. I have identified the politics of the EB III era that was in the original text. It is the same as in Gilgamesh, although the view point is opposing. Gigamesh and David are cosmic representations of the same real king, Naram Sin, grandson of Sargon.

Text was added during the reign of Hammurabi, who is called Solomon in the Bible. This is NOT cosmic myth, but real history of his court. I have been able to identify several of the historic players in that group, including the pharaoh.

The Greco-Roman era saw the last of these changes. I would contend the DSS may well be "signature" copies. Many stories such as the blessings of the 12 sons of Jacob reflect an astrology/cosmic myth that could have only had been created after being exposed to the Greek view of the cosmic myth. The original Hebrew zodiac had 10 signs. They would have been exposed to a 12 sign zodiac under Babylon, but most likely their 12 sign zodiac came from the Greeks and most likely after they broke up the constellation Asad. This would but that writing well after the 600 BCE period, closer to 200 BCE, a very political time frame.

I saw a similar history in my research, but you seem to have made some specific links and conclusions I did not make. The writers of the last stages basically brought the stories and legends together to the Jewish people the ethnic identity with heros, stories, and motivation to stake out there own in a turf war for fertile land with water in a world that was progressively drying out as the climate changed. I do believe the climate change causing northern Africa and the Middle East to dry out causing a sort of tribal musical chairs for the three fertil valley regions. Thank you for your comments. I may check out your book.

[mikeledo]

I saw a similar history in my research, but you seem to have made some specific links and conclusions I did not make. The writers of the last stages basically brought the stories and legends together to the Jewish people the ethnic identity with heros, stories, and motivation to stake out there own in a turf war for fertile land with water in a world that was progressively drying out as the climate changed. I do believe the climate change causing northern Africa and the Middle East to dry out causing a sort of tribal musical chairs for the three fertil valley regions. Thank you for your comments. I may check out your book.

I had original thought the same. I was more concerned with the original text they brought forward then the later additions, although I had to address them too.

I attempted to date the original text I had isolated. I thought it would be the 1100-800 BCE period proposed by scholars. However, my cardinal points indicated the stories originated in the Early Bronze Age. Now I know authors of this era used Early Bronze Age cosmic references incorrectly. Ezekial and even the Greeks messed up. I didn't know if that was the case or not.

The original text had too much continuity to it to be a collection of put together stories, plus the story events were unique to EB III.

Once I KNEW it was an EB III era, I went back and re-edited the text to remove Iron Age references, cities etc. But how? Where should I start and end the text? This is when I discovered resumptive repetition was used to add IA material. Later I discovered Resumpitive repetition was used in Gilgamesh exclusively to add material!

I then read everything I could find on the EB III era to find a historical background. This was the era of the Great Famine, the plagues of Egypt, the rise of the Sargon empire, the fall of Jerico and Ai, destruction of Numeria, and a time of a great meteor shower which plays into the mythology.

I figured out Gilgamesh was written during this era and not hundreds of years earlier as guessed by scholars. It was about Naram Sin.

The idea of Carpe Diem, especially for soldiers, was a common theme for Gilgamesh, David/Uriah and Naram Sin. Other elements fell into place such as the the goddess Ishtar.

Naram Sin loved Ishtar and replaced/destroyed temples to El and replaced them with those dedicated to Ishtar. In Gilgamesh, two gods are missing. One is Ishtar (Tigay claimed it was deliberate and political) and the other is Sin, the moon-god.

In David, Bethsheba is Ishtar. When you map out the story on to the cosmic background, the star that becomes Bethsheba was also used to represent Ishtar. This takes place in Sagittarus, where Uriah becomes Antares and is sacrificed in front of the archer's bow at the ancient autumal equinox. Of course Uriah could not have been a Hittite- a later addition.

My book has been read by a few lay people who have found it "a difficult read" and "it needs more pictures." My nephew suggested I get rid of all those sources that seem to get in the way.

Your work sounds like a continuation of Thomas L..Thompson who supports a late fictional account to the text,.I have found his work a disappointment as it was extremely wordy without much detail, i.e. no smoking gun. I hope you can do better.

My editior likes my book (no surprise) and plans to send it to his alumni at Emory for peer review.( I found out just today- I need to get him some copies). Hopefully I will get some recognition