Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Evidence for the Resurrection: Generalizations and Assumptions
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI agree with you 100%. The best defense for traditional/conservative Christianity is biblical inerrancy. Tell your children that no matter what evidence is presented by Christian liberals or atheists, the plain, simple reading of the Bible is ALWAYS right. God is infallible; human evidence is not.
Once you start picking apart the Bible with Higher Criticism, it is a slippery slope to a loss of faith (or in my current worldview, seeing the truth).
Skeptic: What evidence do you have, Mr./Mrs. Christian, that your god is real; that he is the ruler of the universe; and that if I do not believe in him and obey him I am going to be eternally punished in some fashion?
Christian: The Bible says so.
Skeptic: So how do you know that the Bible is true?
Christian: God says so.
Skeptic: How do you know that God says so?
Christian: The Bible says so.
Skeptic: Wait a minute! That is a circular argument!
Christian: That is simply your fallible human reasoning. Since you are not a believer, you cannot see the truth of the Bible.
Skeptic: So what you are saying is that unless I first believe and submit to your god and your belief system, I will never understand how your circular reasoning is not circular reasoning?? How can anyone debunk such an argument??
Christian: Exactly. Believe, repent, or perish, Sinner!
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Originally posted by Gary View PostLet me give an example of the best way for conservative Christians to deal with atheists and other skeptics:
Skeptic: What evidence do you have, Mr./Mrs. Christian, that your god is real; that he is the ruler of the universe; and that if I do not believe in him and obey him I am going to be eternally punished in some fashion?
Christian: The Bible says so.
Skeptic: So how do you know that the Bible is true?
Christian: God says so.
Skeptic: How do you know that God says so?
Christian: The Bible says so.
Skeptic: Wait a minute! That is a circular argument!
Christian: That is simply your fallible human reasoning. Since you are not a believer, you cannot see the truth of the Bible.
Skeptic: So what you are saying is that unless I first believe and submit to your god and your belief system, I will never understand how your circular reasoning is not circular reasoning?? How can anyone debunk such an argument??
Christian: Exactly. Believe, repent, or perish, Sinner!Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Gary View PostArrogant (ignorant) evangelicals who believe that the only way to be saved is for someone who has reached an Age of Accountability to make a decision/choice to believe.
. . . Believe, repent, or perish, Sinner!Last edited by 37818; 02-04-2016, 02:17 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostTo believe what? If what one believes is not the truth, that belief will save no one.
Typical of a counterfeit gospel.
"There is none righteous, no not one. There is no one who seeks God."
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
"The Word of God is more powerful than a two-edged sword."
Lutherans believe that salvation occurs when GOD chooses, not when man chooses. God predestines a particular sinner to be saved, and then at the predestined time, God exposes that sinner to his Word (spoken or read), and the power of the Word converts the sinner to a believer, gifting that sinner faith and belief, regardless if the sinner is a mature adult, a one month old infant, a three year old child, or a severely mentally impaired adult.
God can accomplish HIS act of salvation, using his Word, by preaching, by reading the Bible or a Gospel tract, or at the moment of Baptism when the Word is spoken as the water flows over a child or adult.
Any other version of salvation is a works-based form of salvation and according to conservative Lutherans is false doctrine and to be condemned and shunned from fellowship in the Church or in any form of joint worship with such a heretic.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIt is a bullet proof defense for any supernatural-based belief system such as yours.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by gary View Post. . . A false gospel; a gospel based on works.
. . . Of baptism when the word is spoken as the water flows over a child or adult.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIt is a bullet proof defense for any supernatural-based belief system such as yours.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Gary View PostSorry, I don't know "tsia".Last edited by 37818; 02-05-2016, 07:35 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostTSIA - That says it all. I was referencing baptism as a work and that it is a part of false gospels of [faith plus] works in order to be saved.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostBaptism is a command. If obeying a command is a work, then your decision to obey the command to believe is a work.
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5. ". . . Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, , , ," -- Titus 5:5. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes, the baptism [the immersion/burial in water] is a command that happens to be a work. Belief is a command which is not counted as a work. To count belief as one's own work is a disobedience to the command. You do not understand that.
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5. ". . . Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, , , ," -- Titus 5:5
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Originally posted by Gary View PostBaptism is an act of God, not of man, you silly evangelical!. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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