The Evidence for the Resurrection: Generalizations and Assumptions

[Gary]

Show me one human immersed [baptized] in water without a second human doing the immersing. What was John the Baptist [the Immerser] doing? Twiddling his thumbs? Jesus who is both Lord and Christ [as God] baptises with Holy Spirit and with fire - in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).

God uses his Word to save in many different ways: the spoken Word, the written Word, the Word with water. If you have a problem with God's choice of "means", take it up with Him.

Your belief system was invented by wild eyed fanatics in the hills of Switzerland 1,500 years after the beginning of Christianity.

[37818]

God uses his Word to save in many different ways: the spoken Word, the written Word, the Word with water. If you have a problem with God's choice of "means", take it up with Him.

Your understanding is in error. There being more than one work with the promise to obtain salvation does not change that solitary means of salvation to those who believe.

Your belief system was invented by wild eyed fanatics in the hills of Switzerland 1,500 years after the beginning of Christianity.

So are you saying they rewrote the NT to teach what it does today?

[Gary]

Your understanding is in error. There being more than one work with the promise to obtain salvation does not change that solitary means of salvation to those who believe.

So are you saying they rewrote the NT to teach what it does today?

(With my Lutheran hat on)

There is only ONE means of salvation: the Word of God. How God chooses to use his Word to save can vary. Baptism is one of those options. It isn't the water that saves in Baptism. It isn't one's choice to be baptized that saves. It is the (magical) power of the Word of God that always saves.

Your belief that it is your decision to believe that seals the deal of your salvation is a work.

[37818]

(With my Lutheran hat on)

There is only ONE means of salvation: the Word of God. How God chooses to use his Word to save can vary. Baptism is one of those options. It isn't the water that saves in Baptism. It isn't one's choice to be baptized that saves. It is the (magical) power of the Word of God that always saves.

Your belief that it is your decision to believe that seals the deal of your salvation is a work.

One is not saved by means of one's own decision to be saved (John 1:12-13; James 1:18).
Furthermore baptism is not part of the gospel by which one is saved. The Apostle Paul was so instructed, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17.

[Gary]

One is not saved by means of one's own decision to be saved (John 1:12-13; James 1:18).
Furthermore baptism is not part of the gospel by which one is saved. The Apostle Paul was so instructed, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17.

The Apostle Paul???

I can top that: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved---Jesus Christ

[37818]

The Apostle Paul???

I can top that: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved---Jesus Christ

True, But the immersion [baptism] is not a requirement there or anywhere else in order to be saved. The "believe" the gospel is (Mark 1:15).

[shunyadragon]

True, But the immersion [baptism] is not a requirement there or anywhere else in order to be saved. The "believe" the gospel is (Mark 1:15).

I am not sure where this is going relevant to the topic of the thread. Probably

[Gary]

True, But the immersion [baptism] is not a requirement there or anywhere else in order to be saved. The "believe" the gospel is (Mark 1:15).

How dare you twist the words of Jesus! He clearly said, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." Period. End of discussion.

[shunyadragon]

There are more problems with possible additions and editing of the New Testament other than the addition of the ending of Mark 16:9-20. Without the added ending of Mark there is no account of the Resurrection in Mark the earliest gospel.

Another problem is fact that John 8:1-11 not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. The New testament gospels and letters have a history of additions and editing.

[37818]

How dare you twist the words of Jesus! He clearly said, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." Period. End of discussion.

I did not twist anything. That promise being true. It did not make immersion [baptism] a requirement. Not there nor anywhere else.

[shunyadragon]

How dare you twist the words of Jesus! He clearly said, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." Period. End of discussion.

"When mediocrity reigns,
no one gets wet!"

[metacrock]

How dare you twist the words of Jesus! He clearly said, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." Period. End of discussion.

prove he said it and not just the redactor?

[rakovsky]

"But the Resurrection has to be true because Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies in the Old Testament."

Assumption after assumption after assumption.

First, even if we assume that all the alleged prophecies in the Old Testament that Christians claim point to Jesus being a suffering/dying/virgin-born Messiah are true, that still doesn't prove that Jesus' dead body exited his tomb. Where in the Old Testament does it explicitly state that the Messiah will be buried in a sealed tomb and that his resurrected body will somehow exit the tomb and ascend into heaven? Nowhere.

Secondly, the claim that the Old Testament talks about Jesus is a major Christian assumption. The overwhelming majority of Jewish scholars say that the Old Testament (the Jewish Bible) says NOTHING about Jesus and that all the passages that Christians claim point to Jesus are mistranslated or misconstrued. Again, which is more probable: First century Christians, desperately looking for any evidence to support their belief that Jesus is the Messiah, scoured the Old Testament for passages which could be construed to refer to Jesus; Christians translators then slanted their translations of those passages with a bias towards the Christian interpretation...similar to what Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and Mormons have done with the New Testament, discovering passages which prophesy things that no Christian for the last 2,000 years has ever hear of...or...a dead man really did exit his sealed tomb in a supernatural body to ascend into the clouds??

Let me please ask you this question:
If the OT said that in 20-35 AD the Messiah would get killed, and get pierced so that blood came out, and get nails driven into his arms and feet, get rejected by his people although he died for their sins, and then resurrect within a 3 day time period, after which the Temple would get destroyed yet he would be the cause of bringing multitudes of gentiles to Abraham's God, and by 2016 all those things occurred, the only unknowns being whether in fact the Jesus was that Messiah and whether he did resurrect on the third day, would this be a strong proof that in fact Jesus was that Messiah and that He did resurrect?

[shunyadragon]

Let me please ask you this question:
If the OT said that in 20-35 AD the Messiah would get killed, and get pierced so that blood came out, and get nails driven into his arms and feet, get rejected by his people although he died for their sins, and then resurrect within a 3 day time period, after which the Temple would get destroyed yet he would be the cause of bringing multitudes of gentiles to Abraham's God, and by 2016 all those things occurred, the only unknowns being whether in fact the Jesus was that Messiah and whether he did resurrect on the third day, would this be a strong proof that in fact Jesus was that Messiah and that He did resurrect?

If true it may contribute to a nice argument, but, ah . . . proof, no. The following claims of prophecy are, of course, vague, nebulous, wishful thinking, and a stretch of loosey goosey interpretation of OT scripture.

[metacrock]

If true it may contribute to a nice argument, but, ah . . . proof, no. The following claims of prophecy are, of course, vague, nebulous, wishful thinking, and a stretch of loosey goosey interpretation of OT scripture.

true for all traditions including those who try to combine all.