Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

I don't hate you at all Gary. I don't care for the fact you sell people false hopes in your 'medical practice' though and in many ways, I consider you at least as bad (if not worse) than the faith healers, but hate you? Nah, hating you is a waste of my energy. In reality, I'm actually pretty optimistic and cheerful, but I don't let fools off the hook let alone those who sell people false hopes in a scam to earn money off their desperation. As far as I'm concerned, that is one of the most vile things somebody can do to another person.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I'm a very good doctor and have an excellent reputation in my community for helping people overcome illness and chronic pain. The majority of my medical practice is traditional medicine; treating hypertension, diabetes, congestive heart failure, etc. with standard treatments and medications. But I also offer alternative forms of medical treatment such as osteopathic manipulative therapy for musculoskeletal problems; prolotherapy and Platelet Rich Plasma Therapy for chronic ligament, tendon, and joint issues. I have an acupuncturist in my office. Sometimes patients ask me for herbal medical alternatives and I give them suggestions. However, I never offer alternative therapies as the ONLY options; the only TRUTH. They are always presented as alternatives and always with the understanding that they are alternative/investigational. Traditional, western options are always presented and offered.

Again, I am very proud of the care I provide to my patients. Many of my "alternative" treatments are now considered conventional. Osteopathic manipulative therapy (adjustments) are now a covered service under Medicare and almost all major insurance carriers. Acupuncture, a form of Chinese medicine, has been studied by western scientists and has been shown to be medically beneficial for several medical problems. Platelet Rich Plasma therapy has also been found beneficial and is being used by orthopedic surgeons, most prominently for professional athletes. Prolotherapy is similar in purpose. And all physicians recognize the benefit of some herbal therapies. The important point is to know which herbal therapies are beneficial, which are useless, and which are harmful.

So that is my defense of the medical care I provide to my patients. I'm very proud of it. The big difference between my medical practice in which I offer alternative/holistic treatment options and conservative Christian proponents of the supernatural is that I don't tell my patients that my way is the only way, whereas your belief system is based on that principle:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. Believe in me or perish."

What I offer is an informed alternative. What you offer is an ultimatum and threat: It's the orthodox/conservative Christian way or it's eternal damnation. Your belief system is evil. It is sick. It must be exposed.


By the way: I'm very happy to continue discussing my medical practice here on TW. It is free national/universal advertising for the forms of therapy I use. Please continue to bring it up.

[Gary]

See post #14 where he defends the practice, and mentions that he offers both traditional and "alternative" therapies. Of course, part of peddling alternative medicine means supporting it with whatever few scientific studies are available on its efficacy to help muddy the water (ignoring those that show it's lack of efficacy of course), but if it was accepted by the mainstream medical establishment it wouldn't be called "alternative".

As this article on Quackwatch points out in this snippet,

Source: Be Wary of "Alternative" Health Methods by Stephen Barrett, M.D., revised on December 9, 2014

An even better way to avoid confusion is to sort methods into three groups: (1) those that work, (2) those that don't work, and (3) those we are not sure about. Most methods described as "alternative" fall into the second group. A 1998 editorial in the Journal of the American Medical Association made the same point in another way:



Arnold Relman, M.D. former editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, has expressed similar thoughts about the term "integrative medicine":

There are not two kinds of medicine, one conventional and the other unconventional, that can be practiced jointly in a new kind of "integrative medicine." Nor, as Andrew Weil and his friends also would have us believe, are there two kinds of thinking, or two ways to find out which treatments work and which do not. In the best kind of medical practice, all proposed treatments must be tested objectively. In the end, there will only be treatments that pass that test and those that do not, those that are proven worthwhile and those that are not [2].

John Farley, Ph.D., professor of physics at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, has commented:

"Integrative" medicine is purportedly combining alternative and mainstream approaches to medicine. The claim is that integrative medicine provides the best of both approaches. This may sound reasonable, but actually it is not. Suppose that the "integrative" approach were to spread beyond medicine, and were to be more broadly adopted by other disciplines in the sciences. The biologists would "integrate" creationism with Darwinian evolution, while the chemists would integrate alchemy into modern scientific chemistry. The geologists would integrate the belief that the world is only 6000 years old (and flat) with modern dating of rocks. Physicists would integrate perpetual motion machines with the conservation of energy and the laws of thermodynamics. And the astronomers would integrate astrology and astronomy. Of course, this is ridiculous. It's not a good idea to integrate nonsense with valid scientific knowledge [3].

Edzard Ernst, M.D., Ph.D. has expressed alarm about the infiltration of "integrative medicine" into academic medical centers:

Integrative medicine has been defined as "medicine that reaffirms the relationship between practitioner and patient, focuses on the whole person, is informed by evidence, and makes use of all appropriate therapeutic approaches, health care professionals (conventional and complementary) to achieve optimal health and healing." This and other definitions do not really tell us which therapies are included under this umbrella term. They merely seem to hijack fundamental principles (e.g. holism, therapeutic relationship, patient-centered medicine, EBM) of any type of good health care. . ..

Integrative medicine, it is claimed, "enhances the quality of primary health care through its provision of patient-centered, effective and safe healthcare." My humble analysis, however, confirms that it is a smokescreen behind which enthusiasts of dubious practices try to incorporate their unproven therapies into routine health care [4].

The "alternative movement" is part of a general societal trend toward rejection of science as a method of determining truths. This movement embraces the postmodernist doctrine that science is not necessarily more valid than pseudoscience [5]. In line with this philosophy, "alternative" proponents assert that scientific medicine (which they mislabel as allopathic, conventional, or traditional medicine) is but one of a vast array of health-care options. "Alternative" promoters often gain public sympathy by portraying themselves as a beleaguered minority fighting a self-serving, monolithic "Establishment."

© Copyright Original Source

Does Medicare consider osteopathic medicine to be "alternative" or unsafe:


Medicare Coverage of Osteopathic Medicine

What It Is

Medical care (sometimes referred to as "osteopathy") provided by a physician licensed as a doctor of osteopathic medicine (D.O.)

What's Covered

Medicare Part B covers service provided by a Medicare-certified physician licensed as a doctor of osteopathic medicine, on the same basis as care provided by a medical doctor (M.D.).https://www.caring.com/medicare_info...athic-medicine

[lilpixieofterror]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I'm a very good doctor and have an excellent reputation in my community for helping people overcome illness and chronic pain. The majority of my medical practice is traditional medicine; treating hypertension, diabetes, congestive heart failure, etc. with standard treatments and medications. But I also offer alternative forms of medical treatment such as osteopathic manipulative therapy for musculoskeletal problems; prolotherapy and Platelet Rich Plasma Therapy for chronic ligament, tendon, and joint issues. I have an acupuncturist in my office. Sometimes patients ask me for herbal medical alternatives and I give them suggestions. However, I never offer alternative therapies as the ONLY options; the only TRUTH. They are always presented as alternatives and always with the understanding that they are alternative/investigational. Traditional, western options are always presented and offered.

That's nice and has acupuncture (or the other 'alternative' treatments) been shown to treat medical illness or not?

Again, I am very proud of the care I provide to my patients. Many of my "alternative" treatments are now considered conventional. Osteopathic manipulative therapy (adjustments) are now a covered service under Medicare and almost all major insurance carriers. Acupuncture, a form of Chinese medicine, has been studied by western scientists and has been shown to be medically beneficial for several medical problems. Platelet Rich Plasma therapy has also been found beneficial and is being used by orthopedic surgeons, most prominently for professional athletes. Prolotherapy is similar in purpose. And all physicians recognize the benefit of some herbal therapies. The important point is to know which herbal therapies are beneficial, which are useless, and which are harmful.

And yet, other studies seem to indicate that acupuncture hasn't been and many doctors call it quackery. Adrift pointed out the facts, but you continue to ignore them and call Christians a bunch of names because you don't want to deal with your own quackery. You say, "But some show they work!" have these studies passed peer review and why does my husband's doctor (who has no problems with treatments that work) consider many of these things quackery and never sends patience there? Why doesn't my bases medical clinic have these on military bases and treat members of the military with them, if they work? Face it Gary, you're just as bad as you attack Christians for.

So that is my defense of the medical care I provide to my patients. I'm very proud of it. The big difference between my medical practice in which I offer alternative/holistic treatment options and Christian proponents of the supernatural is that I don't tell my patients that my way is the only way, whereas your belief system is based on that principle:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. Believe in me or perish."

What I offer is an informed alternative. What you offer is an ultimatum and threat: It's the Christian way or it's eternal damnation. Your belief system is evil. It is sick. It must be exposed.

No, what you offer is false hopes that several medical studies show do not work, but you try to cover it up in pointing out the ones that say it work, while ignoring the ones that say they don't (including the fact that some of those results can't be reproduced by other studies, the hallmark for a study is reproduction by others). As for your idiocy about Christianity, it's really cute that you flat out ignore that the gift of salvation is a free gift that is offered up to everybody and the price is mere acceptance of this gift and nothing more. It's also cute that you flat out ignore that not all Christians believe you are damned to eternal punishment. Many (including myself) believe hell is a place not of torture, but of rebellion where people are separated from those who prefer not to be with God. When you're done attacking things we don't believe quack, our real beliefs await your answer.

By the way: I'm very happy to continue discussing my medical practice here on TW. It is free national/universal advertising for the forms of therapy I use. Please continue to bring it up.

So have these 'studies' you bring up been reproduced or not?

[lilpixieofterror]

https://www.caring.com/medicare_info...athic-medicine

So has acupuncture been confirmed by independent scientific research or not?

BTW my in laws doctor is a DO and she considers acupuncture quack medicine. Just so you're aware.

[Gary]

So has acupuncture been confirmed by independent scientific research or not?

BTW my in laws doctor is a DO and she considers acupuncture quack medicine. Just so you're aware.

Well, let's see what the US government, in particular, the Department of Health and Human Services, says about acupuncture. They have a full page on their official website:

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction

The key is knowing when an "alternative" treatment is potentially beneficial and when its use is dangerous. Telling a patient with newly diagnosed cancer that acupuncture will cure them is obviously bad medical advice and grounds for malpractice.

[lilpixieofterror]

Well, let's see that the US government, in particular, the Department of Health and Human Services, says about acupuncture. They have a full page on their official website:

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction

"Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."

Oops...

[Gary]

"Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain."

Oops...

Did I say that I refer patients to acupuncture to treat their diabetes or heart failure???

You are just on a hateful binge to shut me up. The typical behavior of cults: destroy the ex-member who is exposing the cult's beliefs.

[Adrift]

lilpix, if you're interested here are a sampling of articles from Quackwatch on:

Acupuncture (Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"),

O.M.T. (Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy,

Herbal Treatments (The Herbal Minefield),

Prolotherapy (Medicare Coverage Policy on Prolotherapy for Chronic Low Back Pain, also links to Aetna's webpage where they state: "Aetna considers prolotherapy (also known as proliferant therapy, proliferation therapy, joint sclerotherapy, or reconstructive ligament therapy) experimental and investigational for all indications, including the following (not an all-inclusive list), because there is inadequate evidence of its effectiveness"

And here are a couple medical blogs on the effectiveness of PRP: Platelet-Rich Plasma, PRP: Platelet Rich Plasma, or just Profit Rich Placebo?

And of course, one of the biggest difference between your average Christian inviting a person to make Christ Lord, and your average alternative medical doctor recommending potentially harmful psuedoscience is that most people see letters after the doctor's name and think he must be an expert, while they're usually a lot more free to dismiss the recommendations of your average Christian. Not to mention that making Christ Lord is unlikely to harm you (Pascal's Wager anyone?) whereas the same cannot be said for scientifically unverified medical treatments.

[lilpixieofterror]

Did I say that I refer patients to acupuncture to treat their diabetes or heart failure???

You are just on a hateful binge to shut me up. The typical behavior of cults: destroy the ex-member who is exposing the cult's beliefs.

In other words Gary, you don't like the fact that you're peddling things that show little scientific evidence to back up your claims, while accusing Christians of doing the same thing. I can read Gary and your own links do not say it does, but they say it can and it might. Can and might does not mean the same thing as it does or that it has been shown as being effective.

I do find your psychoanalysis quite cute though. No Gary, I don't hate you nor do I feel the need to shut you up. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. Can and might does not mean does and your own link seems to indicate that there really is little evidence to back up those conclusions, so when you attack Christians for things that you yourself do... well... how does that make you look? Likewise, when you flat out misrepresent what Christians actually teach and believe that also doesn't reflect well on you at all.

[lilpixieofterror]

lilpix, if you're interested here are a sampling of articles from Quackwatch on:

Acupuncture (Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"),

O.M.T. (Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy,

Herbal Treatments (The Herbal Minefield),

Prolotherapy (Medicare Coverage Policy on Prolotherapy for Chronic Low Back Pain, also links to Aetna's webpage where they state: "Aetna considers prolotherapy (also known as proliferant therapy, proliferation therapy, joint sclerotherapy, or reconstructive ligament therapy) experimental and investigational for all indications, including the following (not an all-inclusive list), because there is inadequate evidence of its effectiveness"

And here are a couple medical blogs on the effectiveness of PRP: Platelet-Rich Plasma, PRP: Platelet Rich Plasma, or just Profit Rich Placebo?

And of course, one of the biggest difference between your average Christian inviting a person to make Christ Lord, and your average alternative medical doctor recommending potentially harmful psuedoscience is that most people see letters after the doctor's name and think he must be an expert, while they're usually a lot more free to dismiss the recommendations of your average Christian. Not to mention that making Christ Lord is unlikely to harm you (Pascal's Wager anyone?) whereas the same cannot be said for scientifically unverified medical treatments.

Bingo, plus the gift of salvation is a free gift offered to all that (as you pointed out) doesn't cost you anything personally.

I should also point out that I do have some reason to hope that stuff like this can work. My dad has a bad back that causes him consistent pain. My husband has a mild form of RA that effects his joints and does cause him to hurt too. My in laws also have some things that cause them pain as well. I sure would love if something would come along and help them out, but the odd thing is that after all the doctors they have seen, none of them have ever used acupuncture or suggested that any of them use it (and some of these doctors are DO's).

[Gary]

lilpix, if you're interested here are a sampling of articles from Quackwatch on:

Acupuncture (Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"),

O.M.T. (Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy,

Herbal Treatments (The Herbal Minefield),

Prolotherapy (Medicare Coverage Policy on Prolotherapy for Chronic Low Back Pain, also links to Aetna's webpage where they state: "Aetna considers prolotherapy (also known as proliferant therapy, proliferation therapy, joint sclerotherapy, or reconstructive ligament therapy) experimental and investigational for all indications, including the following (not an all-inclusive list), because there is inadequate evidence of its effectiveness"

And here are a couple medical blogs on the effectiveness of PRP: Platelet-Rich Plasma, PRP: Platelet Rich Plasma, or just Profit Rich Placebo?

And of course, one of the biggest difference between your average Christian inviting a person to make Christ Lord, and your average alternative medical doctor recommending potentially harmful psuedoscience is that most people see letters after the doctor's name and think he must be an expert, while they're usually a lot more free to dismiss the recommendations of your average Christian. Not to mention that making Christ Lord is unlikely to harm you (Pascal's Wager anyone?) whereas the same cannot be said for scientifically unverified medical treatments.

You are peddling a cult. You are peddling fear. You are peddling the belief that there is only ONE way to believe.

And you are trying with all your might to shut me up by attacking me personally. Sorry, cultist. It's not going to work.

[Gary]

lilpix, if you're interested here are a sampling of articles from Quackwatch on:

Acupuncture (Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"),

O.M.T. (Dubious Aspects of Osteopathy,

Herbal Treatments (The Herbal Minefield),

Prolotherapy (Medicare Coverage Policy on Prolotherapy for Chronic Low Back Pain, also links to Aetna's webpage where they state: "Aetna considers prolotherapy (also known as proliferant therapy, proliferation therapy, joint sclerotherapy, or reconstructive ligament therapy) experimental and investigational for all indications, including the following (not an all-inclusive list), because there is inadequate evidence of its effectiveness"

And here are a couple medical blogs on the effectiveness of PRP: Platelet-Rich Plasma, PRP: Platelet Rich Plasma, or just Profit Rich Placebo?

And of course, one of the biggest difference between your average Christian inviting a person to make Christ Lord, and your average alternative medical doctor recommending potentially harmful psuedoscience is that most people see letters after the doctor's name and think he must be an expert, while they're usually a lot more free to dismiss the recommendations of your average Christian. Not to mention that making Christ Lord is unlikely to harm you (Pascal's Wager anyone?) whereas the same cannot be said for scientifically unverified medical treatments.

Let's take a look at CULTwatch and expose Adrift for what he is:


The modern definition of a mind control cult is any group which employs mind control and deceptive recruiting techniques. In other words cults trick people into joining and coerce them into staying. This is the definition that most people would agree with. Except the cults themselves of course!

Key Point: Character assassination, especially of ex-members, is a key tool of cults.

Source: http://www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

Adrift's conservative Christianity:

Deceptive Recruiting Techniques: "Jesus looooooves you so much! We loooooooove you so much! Believe in Jesus and he will give you peace that passes all understanding. Believe in Jesus and you will get a mansion in heaven and a golden crown! Believe in Jesus and you will live forever...after you die!"

Mind Control: "If you ever leave Christianity, you will be damned (tortured in some fashion)...forever and ever!"



Cult! Cult! Cult!

By the way: If you suffer from neck, back, knee, hip or joint chronic pain; have tried physical therapy, steroid injections, NSAIDs, pain specialists, I strongly urge you to investigate prolotherapy and Platelet Rich Plasma therapy. It has helped a lot of people!

Thank you to Adrift and Little Pixie for allowing me to share these treatment options with the Theology Web viewership!

[Bisto]

In other words Gary, you don't like the fact that you're peddling things that show little scientific evidence to back up your claims, while accusing Christians of doing the same thing. I can read Gary and your own links do not say it does, but they say it can and it might. Can and might does not mean the same thing as it does or that it has been shown as being effective.

I do find your psychoanalysis quite cute though. No Gary, I don't hate you nor do I feel the need to shut you up. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. Can and might does not mean does and your own link seems to indicate that there really is little evidence to back up those conclusions, so when you attack Christians for things that you yourself do... well... how does that make you look? Likewise, when you flat out misrepresent what Christians actually teach and believe that also doesn't reflect well on you at all.

To paraphrase him, though, you can't rule out any of these will work. We gotta be open to the possibility after all. No rational person would claim it's impossible they will work. Since he argues thus for his alternative Resurrection theories, it feels only natural to come in his defense with the same argument here.

I'm not sure whether I'm being ironic or not.

Edit: "He trusted on this argument that it would deliver him: let it deliver him, seeing he delighted in it."

[Gary]

To paraphrase him, though, you can't rule out any of these will work. We gotta be open to the possibility after all. No rational person would claim it's impossible they will work. Since he argues thus for his alternative Resurrection theories, it feels only natural to come in his defense with the same argument here.

I'm not sure whether I'm being ironic or not.

I offer informed options. Conservative Christianity offers no options, only an ultimatum: Submit or perish!

It is a cult.

[Bisto]

Let's take a look at CULTwatch and expose Adrift for what he is:


The modern definition of a mind control cult is any group which employs mind control and deceptive recruiting techniques. In other words cults trick people into joining and coerce them into staying. This is the definition that most people would agree with. Except the cults themselves of course!

Key Point: Character assassination, especially of ex-members, is a key tool of cults.

Source: http://www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

Adrift's conservative Christianity:

Deceptive Recruiting Techniques: "Jesus looooooves you so much! We loooooooove you so much! Believe in Jesus and he will give you peace that passes all understanding. Believe in Jesus and you will get a mansion in heaven and a golden crown! Believe in Jesus and you will live forever...after you die!"

Mind Control: "If you ever leave Christianity, you will be damned (tortured in some fashion)...forever and ever!"



Cult! Cult! Cult!

Let me recycle your own words again: generalizations and assumptions! You don't honestly believe all Christians ever preach and threat thus, do you? Surely SOME have the attitude you describe. Can you really say that about most, let alone all?

Edit: now that I read that last mantra again, it very much reminded me of those "Burn the witch!" "Hang him high!" and similar "mob with torches and pitchforks" cries.