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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Pagan origins of Judaism
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostThe consensus view in modern scholarship is that Yahweh was originally a minor storm/warrior deity that was imported into
Israel from a southern region (Edom/Midian). He was then accepted into certain Canaanite/Proto-Israelite pantheons as a
subordinate or of Son of El as is evident from the editing of Deut. 32:8-9. He was then eventually promoted over a long
complex political/ideological process to the status of the "only God." Here's the latest scholarly treatment -
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z5...page&q&f=falseEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnd this is why I think sometimes that modern scholarship can be a load of hooey. This is all one big argument from silence, courtesy of the History of Religions school. No one reading the text at face value would get anything like this.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnd this is why I think sometimes that modern scholarship can be a load of hooey. This is all one big argument from silence, courtesy of the History of Religions school. No one reading the text at face value would get anything like this.Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-08-2016, 06:54 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually, your argument is more an 'argument from silence,' because responses like this are totally lacking of substance of any meaningful references or discussion as to what the actual text says.
Your ignoring the fact that there are many literal references to a polytheistic descriptions of a hierarchy of Gods in the OT.
You also fail to respond to the facts that much of the text of the older sections of the OT are clearly taken from Canaanite, Ugarite and Babylonian cuneiform tablets.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGood thing I wasn't trying to make an argument.
No, there aren't. There are merely references to other gods, none of them positive.
Taken from? Hardly. People are conflating similarity of style with dependence because that's what they want to see.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Rational Gaze View PostI think you mean more or less incorrect. There's absolutely zero evidence of any kind at all for any of it. I checked out the link and the authors have repeated claims that have been refuted for decades. Like claiming that the Torah is more recent than the 1st millennium BC when all the textual evidence points to a date of composition in the 2nd millennium BC.
There's painfully little textual evidence suggesting a 2nd millennium BC date and mountains against it. Almost all critical scholars think the Hebrew Bible a product of the Persian period.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou have provided zero evidence to support your assertion. Still waiting . . .
Your playing blind man's bluff and blur . . .
All the evidence for the Torah before the 1st millennium BCE is in Canaanite and Babylonian cuneiform tablets.
Can you cite any archeological evidence of the existence of evidence of actually Hebrew Torah text prior to ~1200-1000 BCE?
The oldest text known is the silver scroll ~600 BCE.
The oldest texts we have are the Dead Sea Scrolls, from the 3rd century BCE to the 1st CE.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnd this is why I think sometimes that modern scholarship can be a load of hooey. This is all one big argument from silence, courtesy of the History of Religions school. No one reading the text at face value would get anything like this.
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In the Ugaritic texts we read in the Baal myth of ‘the seventy sons of Asherah (Athirat)’ (KTU 1.4. VI.46). Since Asherah was (Canaanite) El’s consort, this therefore implies that El’s sons were seventy in number. The Dead Sea Scrolls version (original rendering) of Deut. 32:8-9 casts Yahweh as one of the ‘sons of El’ -
‘When Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God/El.
Yahweh's portion was his people, Jacob was the lot of his inheritance.
The later scribes of the MT altered the phrase "sons of El" to "sons of Israel" to avoid the obvious polytheistic implications.
The connection of the Ugaritic texts and the Old Testament can be found in Deut. 32:8-9 (70 sons of El) as well as the table of 70 nations in Genesis 10. The Jews believed there to be seventy nations on earth, so that the sons of El were accordingly also seventy in number. Each nation was believed to belong to a patron deity. Just as Chemosh was the patron deity to the Moabites and Milcom to the Ammonites, Yahweh was believed to be the patron deity of the Israelites. After monotheism had become absolute, the gods were demoted to the status of angels which is reflected in the later Jewish apocalyptic concept involving seventy guardian 'angels' of the nations (Targum Pseudo-Jonathon on Deut 32.8; 1 En. 89.59-77, 90.22-27).Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 02-08-2016, 06:51 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHe's talking about the scrolls found at Ketef Hinnom.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostOne of the Hebrew names for God, "El," is the same as the name of the Caananite high god. Reading the Hebrew at face value gives you insights that English won't.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostCognates do not necessarily have the same meaning.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHe's talking about the scrolls found at Ketef Hinnom.
I was referring to the complete texts we have from the Judean desert (often known as the Dead Sea Scrolls, though some were found outside of Qumran).
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