Determinism And Moral Responsibility

[seer]

And you assume most men can't and that there's nothing better for maintaining social cohesion than religion for no reason.

Fine, and you will replace it with what?

Just because we are determined doesn't mean that we don't exercise control over our behavior, that control over our behavior is all part of the determined process - and because no one can know the future, we can expect behavioral control in the future in people we know are capable of it. Dogs do exercise control, although to a lesser ability, because it's a totally different species.

What nonsense. In what sense do we control? If we are determined then all our act are inevitable. We could never do otherwise in any given situation than what we actually do. You can't have it both ways.

[seer]

Responsible means the ability to respond. We human beings in general can rationally respond to various stuff, and so this becomes an expectation of future behavior. That's the practical way of looking at responsibility in determinism. Personal moral responsibility just needs to be redefined in a non-LFW (which you know is incoherent anyway).

Yes, redefine - more arbitrary definitions. Easy way out...

[The Thinker]

Fine, and you will replace it with what?

Secular philosophies like humanism.

Or Star Wars.

What nonsense. In what sense do we control? If we are determined then all our act are inevitable. We could never do otherwise in any given situation than what we actually do. You can't have it both ways.

We'll never know what acts we'll do, so it doesn't matter that they're inevitable. Control in this sense is your capability to rationally respond to different situations - that are all determined. We're not ping pong balls randomly bouncing around, we're rational agents. At least some of us are.

[The Thinker]

Yes, redefine - more arbitrary definitions. Easy way out...

It's not arbitrary, it's a definition that makes sense given determinism. Arbitrary would imply that I can just define it as anything based on no system or reason. You're just throwing out words that you don't even know how to define.

[seer]

Secular philosophies like humanism.

Why not totalitarian Communism? You guys seem to like that.

We'll never know what acts we'll do, so it doesn't matter that they're inevitable. Control in this sense is your capability to rationally respond to different situations - that are all determined. We're not ping pong balls randomly bouncing around, we're rational agents. At least some of us are.

Doesn't change a thing. If all our acts are inevitable, then there is no control. No moral responsibility in any real sense of the term. Just biological automatons doing what automatons do. And what rational person blames a robot for doing what it does?

[seer]

It's not arbitrary, it's a definition that makes sense given determinism. Arbitrary would imply that I can just define it as anything based on no system or reason. You're just throwing out words that you don't even know how to define.

You just told me in another thread that all words are in fact arbitrary. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Remember: Then it doesn't matter because words don't have intrinsic meaning. The distinction in the concept is all that matters. Words are arbitrary.

[The Thinker]

Why not totalitarian Communism? You guys seem to like that.

Us guys? Do you guys like theocracy?

Doesn't change a thing. If all our acts are inevitable, then there is no control. No moral responsibility in any real sense of the term. Just biological automatons doing what automatons do. And what rational person blames a robot for doing what it does?

Of course it changes everything. WE don't know what we're going to do, so we can put responsibilities on others with an expectation that they will be responsible. If the robot is artificial intelligence and capable of thinking rationally like us, then it doesn't make sense to blame it for what it does.

[The Thinker]

You just told me in another thread that all words are in fact arbitrary. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Remember: Then it doesn't matter because words don't have intrinsic meaning. The distinction in the concept is all that matters. Words are arbitrary.

Yes words are arbitrary, that doesn't change anything that I said. Given your lackluster ability at "rational conscious deliberation" that you've exhibited in the past, I don't think you understand the concept. You don't make any sense. As usual.

[seer]

Us guys? Do you guys like theocracy?

Yes, when Jesus returns, not until.

Of course it changes everything. WE don't know what we're going to do, so we can put responsibilities on others with an expectation that they will be responsible. If the robot is artificial intelligence and capable of thinking rationally like us, then it doesn't make sense to blame it for what it does.

It changes nothing Thinker, it is all determined, the means as well as the ends.

[seer]

Yes words are arbitrary, that doesn't change anything that I said. Given your lackluster ability at "rational conscious deliberation" that you've exhibited in the past, I don't think you understand the concept. You don't make any sense. As usual.

Of course...

[Tassman]

But you assume that most men can be good without believing in a deity, and you assume that there is something better for maintaining social cohesion than religion.

Yes, our evolved instincts of mutual reciprocity, altruism and natural tendency to adhere to the rules of the group is better for maintaining social cohesion than religion. Religion demands conformity.

No more divisive than politics or race or worldviews or economics.

Much more divisive, because religion demands adherence to the "word of god" and there are lots of gods and lots of denominations and each one just knows it’s right and duty-bound to set other people straight.

What do you mean "we exercise control over our behavior?" That is exactly the point, we don't in your world - we are determined. Does the junk yard dog exercise control over his behavior?

The junk yard dog exercises control over his behaviour according to his instincts as a pack animal just as we do according to the social expectations of the social species to which we belong. It’s instinctive and we assign moral blame to those who do not adhere to the rules of the group.

[Tassman]

Yes, when Jesus returns, not until.

Kim Davis and her supporters didn't seem prepared to wait that long.

[seer]

The junk yard dog exercises control over his behaviour according to his instincts as a pack animal just as we do according to the social expectations of the social species to which we belong. It’s instinctive and we assign moral blame to those who do not adhere to the rules of the group.

That is just stupid, the dog is a slave to antecedent conditions. It is determined from beginning to end - just as we are. Moral responsibility in a fiction in your world - an illusion.

[The Thinker]

Yes, when Jesus returns, not until.

Which will never happen.

It changes nothing Thinker, it is all determined, the means as well as the ends.

It being all determined doesn't logically entail that we must do nothing. That would be your confusion of determinism with fatalism.

[seer]

That would be your confusion of determinism with fatalism.

Except my definition of fatalism would work. And is legitimate and accepted. Never mind the fact that we have no control as far as doing or not doing anything.