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Is the Ascension Story an Embellishment?

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Did you or did you not read The Resurrection of the Son of God as you claimed to have done?
    The evidence points to no. All we have otherwise is one person's eyewitness testimony otherwise, and we all know how valid a single eyewitness is. Given his scenarios in the Resurrection thread, he shows no awareness of what was in the book; I regard it as highly implausible that he actually did read it.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      Let me address this complaint.

      This thread is under the category of "Apologetics": reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.

      It is not under one of the Christian threads restricted to Christians; to discuss prayer requests or other intra-Christian topics. I am here presenting an argument against the probability of the central claim of Christianity: supernaturalism. I am here to present an argument in favor of reason and science, over resurrected dead bodies; levitating dead bodies; water-walking bodies, etc. I am not hear to learn the philosophical and theological intricacies of these supernatural/magical beliefs. I am here to prove these beliefs as very, very highly improbable, and because they are so highly improbable, that no educated, rational person should believe them to be any more real than the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus.
      'Though many Christians will agree with you, and vigorously oppose humanism as atheistic, I completely disagree with you that the central claim of Christianity is supernaturalism. I think the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation points toward a much more important and much greater complementarity in humanist Christianity. We believe God revealed himself most completely in the person of Jesus Christ and his life and ministry, death and resurrection. As one of our earliest theologians said:
      Gloria Dei est vivens homo.

      The glory of God is living humanity, or as frequently translated, man fully alive.

      Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, Book 4, Chapter 20
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        But Matthew also says that some of the eleven doubted on the mountain in Galilee, which is why I consider him to be somewhat ambiguous on this issue. What you quoted and bolded from me in your post #143 was not speaking of differing interpretations among the writers of the New Testament, but in many other contexts.
        Who knows why some doubted in Matthew or what he's even conveying there. My opinion is that Matthew is likely looking in retrospect and referencing what happened prior to the meeting in Galilee (i.e. Luke 24:11, John 20:24-25). But Matthew wasn't at all ambiguous about the physical nature of Jesus prior to that statement.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Authors of the books of the Bible teach various things. For example, Qohelet expresses pessimistic doubts about whether there is an afterlife:
          I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?
          He also seems pretty sure where the spirit goes in Ecclesiastes 12:7. I imagine it's probably best to read the question in 3:21 as rhetorical.

          Thus one should not be surprised that during the time of Jesus, the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife. I think Jesus agreed with a different Jewish opinion at that time that believed in a time of purgatory for some. Origen is famous for not believing that God's love was infinite and would eventually accomplish the salvation of all. A popular opinion among Catholic theologians, even a few prominent Cardinals, is that it is orthodox to hope for the salvation of all. That is my own personal belief, but many here will surely denigrate this view as insufficiently litteralist.
          I can't think of a single Christian currently on this forum who does not hope for the salvation of all, but Jesus indicates that the gate which leads to eternal life is narrow, and the road is hard.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            I don't have time to go into detail, but you might be interested in looking into the more ancient moral influence theory of atonement. Many modern interpreters of Paul read him as supporting this idea, which has none of the negative implications that you are criticizing here.
            You didn't address the morality of sacrificing a human being to appease a God.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              As far as I know, Craig is the only author to name the feeling "Holy Spirit epistemology." Robrecht never even heard of it, and he's theologically very well read, AFAIK.

              I'd want to read a whole book about it and see what parts of it I've misapprehended. I think I have the only book to concisely explain what it entails. There's also lots of great videos and podcasts (Craig calls them resources) on RF and YouTube where Craig talks more about the subject, presumably to "teach" people interested in his views.
              Don't go by me. I have not read much theology since the mid-90s and was never well versed in early Protestant theologians. Luther a little bit, but no Calvin, 'though later German Protestant New Testament scholarship occupied more than a few years of my life.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                You didn't address the morality of sacrificing a human being to appease a God.
                If you follow my link, I think you will see how this is addressed. I'm very late for a dinner party with friends so no time to discuss further now.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  The evidence points to no. All we have otherwise is one person's eyewitness testimony otherwise, and we all know how valid a single eyewitness is. Given his scenarios in the Resurrection thread, he shows no awareness of what was in the book; I regard it as highly implausible that he actually did read it.
                  But not impossible!!



                  I think if he really does own it, at best he skimmed through it rather quickly.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    'Though many Christians will agree with you, and vigorously oppose humanism as atheistic, I completely disagree with you that the central claim of Christianity is supernaturalism. I think the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation points toward a much more important and much greater complementarity in humanist Christianity. We believe God revealed himself most completely in the person of Jesus Christ and his life and ministry, death and resurrection. As one of our earliest theologians said:
                    Gloria Dei est vivens homo.

                    The glory of God is living humanity, or as frequently translated, man fully alive.

                    Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, Book 4, Chapter 20
                    Do you deny the central story of Christianity that:

                    ---an invisible, eternal, immaterial divine being, the Creator, sent himself to earth in the form of a human
                    ---in this act of coming to earth, the Creator of the Universe was born of a conception between a divine ghost and a virgin female
                    ---once an adult human, he performed various miracles including walking on water and raising the dead
                    ---and after he was killed in an act of human sacrifice to atone for the evil doings of all humanity, he was in some fashion given a new life and is at this moment ruling the universe from a throne in outer space (or in another dimension).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by whag View Post
                      You're like a synthesized, automated Richard Dawkins. All the phrases are recycled from his lexicon. You should at least try to emulate the braver and more linguistically superior Christopher Hitchens or Thomas Paine. I think they were more respectful, but I may be wrong. I'm not a student of any skeptic orator.
                      Thomas Paine:

                      The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.



                      Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by whag View Post
                        You're like a synthesized, automated Richard Dawkins. All the phrases are recycled from his lexicon. You should at least try to emulate the braver and more linguistically superior Christopher Hitchens or Thomas Paine. I think they were more respectful, but I may be wrong. I'm not a student of any skeptic orator.
                        And here is Christopher Hitchens on Christianity:



                        Amen, Hitch! Amen!
                        Last edited by Gary; 02-13-2016, 07:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I can't think of a single Christian currently on this forum who does not hope for the salvation of all, but Jesus indicates that the gate which leads to eternal life is narrow, and the road is hard.
                          As I recall my derivation of the Dirty Dozen, with the exceptions of LPOT and JPHolding, I placed TWebbers on the list for soteriology that lacked any hope for anyone not their type of Christian. Several of the ten are currently active and presumably still believe the same.
                          Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post



                            I can't think of a single Christian currently on this forum who does not hope for the salvation of all,
                            I can think of plenty who act like they don't.

                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            but Jesus indicates that the gate which leads to eternal life is narrow, and the road is hard.
                            This would be an intensely discouraging thought in the mission field, I would imagine.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              And here is Christopher Hitchens on Christianity:



                              Amen, Hitch! Amen!
                              Okay, I forgot they were all so rude. SORRY. But Dawkins is the crudest of all.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                                Okay, I forgot they were all so rude. SORRY. But Dawkins is the crudest of all.
                                I would describe them as honest and brave.

                                Comment

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