Is the Ascension Story an Embellishment?

[Carrikature]

Well, yeah, I know that. But as a skeptic, you want to focus on one issue at a time, because then it just sounds like anti-Christian ranting (heard it before, been there done that) which won't get very many responses.

On the other hand, presenting a single issue at a time is treated with the same level of dismissiveness, particularly when each issue on its own isn't particularly damning.

[seanD]

On the other hand, presenting a single issue at a time is treated with the same level of dismissiveness, particularly when each issue on its own isn't particularly damning.

Well, then I guess it comes down to the intentions of the OP. Are they here to engage and learn, maybe even challenge their own knowledge prowess about the subject, or are they here just to rant and rave and spew anti-Christian polemics? Like I said, in regards to the latter, been there done that; it's boring.

[robrecht]

And invisible, imaginary friends are very real to some children. These invisible, imaginary friends make the child feel safe, loved, happy, etc. This fact demonstrates that we cannot base our belief in the existence of an invisible being solely by how our belief about this alleged invisible being makes us feel. There must be other evidence for adults to believe in an invisible being and still claim to be rational and logical. Do you have other evidence?

It depends on what you mean by 'evidence'. I am not a child so I do not place my thoughts and intuitions in the same category as childhood imaginary friends, which I also did not have as a child. Are you looking for physical evidence, philosophical approaches, theological criteria? Specifically for Yahweh? Or a more general sense of God/god(s)?

[shunyadragon]

No, it proves the "Author" of your holy book doesn't know what he's talking about...or that he doesn't exist.

The Bible as well as the scriptures of all religions were written by humans, including the writings of the Baha'i Faith..

[whag]

He seems real to me. I like thinking about him and trying to figure him out. He seems to regard this with a light-hearted sense of humor most of the time.

Is this a variation on Holy Spirit epistemology? Does emotion factor into it then?

[whag]

Well, yeah, I know that. But as a skeptic, you want to focus on one issue at a time, because then it just sounds like anti-Christian ranting (heard it before, been there done that) which won't get very many responses.

He's gotten enough to inform. Robrecht's calmed Gary down a bit. The rantiness obvious in Gary's posts has become kind of a white noise to him,

[Gary]

It depends on what you mean by 'evidence'. I am not a child so I do not place my thoughts and intuitions in the same category as childhood imaginary friends, which I also did not have as a child. Are you looking for physical evidence, philosophical approaches, theological criteria? Specifically for Yahweh? Or a more general sense of God/god(s)?

How would you prove the existence of Yahweh to someone who has never heard of Christianity and who does not believe in the reality of the supernatural?

[robrecht]

Is this a variation on Holy Spirit epistemology? Does emotion factor into it then?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure exactly what Holy Spirit epistemology is. Emotions are an important part of human experience.

[robrecht]

How would you prove the existence of Yahweh to someone who has never heard of Christianity and who does not believe in the reality of the supernatural?

I don't think I would try to prove the existence of Yahweh, specifically, and, in general, I tend to stay away from any specific claims of 'supernatural' as poorly defined gibberish. Does this hypothetical person believe in God or some form of ultimate metaphysical reality? I might inquire as to their beliefs, if any, about such ultimate or fundamental realities or values. Their sense of morality and conscience would probably factor in to our conversations. I would want to draw out their sense of wonder or awe at the universe and how this affects their day-to-day life. Basically, if I liked the person, I would try to become friends, or generally be a good neighbor, respectful of their beliefs and their needs or desires. So many hypotheticals and unknown specifics. I don't really have a generic approach or standard sales pitch.

[whag]

I don't think so, but I'm not sure exactly what Holy Spirit epistemology is. Emotions are an important part of human experience.

It's also called reformed epistemology. It's an idea popularized by Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_epistemology

Craig further clarifies it here:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-w...he-holy-spirit

What do you mean by God seems real to you?

[robrecht]

It's also called reformed epistemology. It's an idea popularized by Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_epistemology

Craig further clarifies it here:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-w...he-holy-spirit

What do you mean by God seems real to you?

It does seem somewhat intriguing. I do not follow either of these thinkers and am not very familiar with the thought of John Calvin, other than the most basic overview of Calvinism. 'His idea' that God has planted a sensus divinitatis in humans sounds like a much older idea that, as adapted by Thomas Aquinas and further developed by Karl Rahner, may be seen in a more positive light, and it is indeed a view that I am somewhat inclined to. Note here the manner in which Thomas modifies the idea as found in John Damascene:

Objection 1. It seems that the existence of God is self-evident. Now those things are said to be self-evident to us the knowledge of which is naturally implanted in us, as we can see in regard to first principles. But as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 1,3), "the knowledge of God is naturally implanted in all." Therefore the existence of God is self-evident.

Reply to Objection 1. To know that God exists in a general and confused way is implanted in us by nature, inasmuch as God is man's beatitude. For man naturally desires happiness, and what is naturally desired by man must be naturally known to him. This, however, is not to know absolutely that God exists; just as to know that someone is approaching is not the same as to know that Peter is approaching, even though it is Peter who is approaching; for many there are who imagine that man's perfect good which is happiness, consists in riches, and others in pleasures, and others in something else.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

As developed by Rahner and others, the idea is that in all of our seeking of truth and goodness, all people are in fact approaching the ultimate Good which is God. This would, of course, be true even for those who do not explicitly believe in God, to the extent that they are honestly seeking what is good as they understand it. I do not think of this as any form of proof, of course, but it seems to me to be sort of confirmatory of my experience in coming to know of God and truth and goodness and happiness and the pursuit of a moral and honest life.

[whag]

I don't think I would try to prove the existence of Yahweh, specifically, and, in general, I tend to stay away from any specific claims of 'supernatural' as poorly defined gibberish. Does this hypothetical person believe in God or some form of ultimate metaphysical reality? I might inquire as to their beliefs, if any, about such ultimate or fundamental realities or values. Their sense of morality and conscience would probably factor in to our conversations. I would want to draw out their sense of wonder or awe at the universe and how this affects their day-to-day life. Basically, if I liked the person, I would try to become friends, or generally be a good neighbor, respectful of their beliefs and their needs or desires. So many hypotheticals and unknown specifics. I don't really have a generic approach or standard sales pitch.

I think this is why general evangelism is so ineffective. I'd wager this board is full of former Christians who got the standard sales pitch. It's easy for some Christians to think themselves true evangelists by giving the boring boilerplate rather than getting their hands dirty and presenting viable belief options. Few of them would know how to effectively convey the Primacy of Christ view (or even know what it is) for example. There's a lack of sophistication in the mission field, and I think that explains the rise in skepticism. This is my humble opinion based on lots of observation and reading.

[Adrift]

It's also called reformed epistemology. It's an idea popularized by Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_epistemology

Craig further clarifies it here:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-w...he-holy-spirit

What do you mean by God seems real to you?

Are you sure the two are perfectly synonymous? It was my understanding that what you refer to as "Holy Spirit epistemology" is simply to do with the self-authentication of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life, while Reformed Theology is the view that belief in God is properly basic. I can see how there's overlap between the two, but maybe you're more read up on the subject. Also, it's my understanding that Plantinga and Craig have slightly different views on Reformed Theology, which I suppose makes sense since Plantinga is a Calvinist and Craig is a Molinist.

[robrecht]

I think this is why general evangelism is so ineffective. I'd wager this board is full of former Christians who got the standard sales pitch. It's easy for some Christians to think themselves true evangelists by giving the boring boilerplate rather than getting their hands dirty and presenting viable belief options. Few of them would know how to effectively convey the Primacy of Christ view (or even know what it is) for example. There's a lack of sophistication in the mission field, and I think that explains the rise in skepticism. This is my humble opinion based on lots of observation and reading.

I'm very doubtful that much in the way of good evangelization can be done over the Internet, where in depth discussions can be very difficult. Things usually devolve into petty arguments. But not always. It is much better to look someone in the eye and share time together.

[Gary]

I don't think I would try to prove the existence of Yahweh, specifically, and, in general, I tend to stay away from any specific claims of 'supernatural' as poorly defined gibberish. Does this hypothetical person believe in God or some form of ultimate metaphysical reality? I might inquire as to their beliefs, if any, about such ultimate or fundamental realities or values. Their sense of morality and conscience would probably factor in to our conversations. I would want to draw out their sense of wonder or awe at the universe and how this affects their day-to-day life. Basically, if I liked the person, I would try to become friends, or generally be a good neighbor, respectful of their beliefs and their needs or desires. So many hypotheticals and unknown specifics. I don't really have a generic approach or standard sales pitch.

I think your answer is a clue to the problem of proving the existence of Yahweh: one must already believe in the supernatural; in gods of some sort. Then you can try to convince the person that your god is the only true god. And the typical manner to do that is to prove the resurrection of the dead body of a man who lived twenty centuries ago. I think it is going to be much harder today to convince educated people of rising dead bodies than it has been in the past.