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Can or Should God's Existence be Proven?

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  • #76
    Any god whose existence can be proved, disproven, or definitively doubted is not God.


    Disagree with the statement made. Just to finish up, stiff neck is stiff neck no matter what god can be unproven or proven. Proving or not proving any existence gives toward a substitution for 'what' mankind categorizes in a god which is being technically blind. (Jeremiah 2:11 - ":11 Hath a nation changed its gods, which yet are no gods? But My people hath changed its glory for that which doth not profit.") The only proof of God is in the way He forgives and sees over his creation as a whole and not a part (correction: as in not being selective toward any particular group of people) - and also, the way God continually forgives us by sending a savior to reunite us a people to himself. Exodus is a favorite of mine because the proof of God is in the forgiveness of man even when mankind falls short. To me God shows us through the Israelites that the road to forgiveness "IS" possible - and that, he is not a God who destroys his creation but that he has an understanding of who we are and knows us by name - "for your Father knows what you need before you ask him". The many other "gods" (or kings - of the past) did not have that ability or accessibility.
    Last edited by Marta; 03-17-2016, 02:35 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      I'm not sure why robrecht believes that if a God could be proven to exist, then that would somehow be unbelievable, or disqualify God from being.

      The Catholic Church has always held, which was defined infallibly in the First Vatican Council, that God's existence and Him being the first principle and end of all things, could be learned by natural reason. That is without any kind of supernatural revelation. We can know that God exists.

      The Church takes a more nuanced approach in regards to the doctrines about God specific to Christianity, as some of those require revelation, that is, the nature of the Trinity for instance. And the Church also recognises that the use of human reasoning has various limitations, so that God has graciously granted that we can also come to know of His being by supernatural inspiration.

      Source: Dei Filius, First Vatican Council

      1. The same Holy mother Church holds and teaches that God, the source and end of all things, can be known with certainty from the consideration of created things, by the natural power of human reason : ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. [13] 2. It was, however, pleasing to his wisdom and goodness to reveal himself and the eternal laws of his will to the human race by another, and that a supernatural, way. This is how the Apostle puts it : In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son [14].

      © Copyright Original Source

      The Fathers of Vatican I could hardly have been unaware that there is a difference between proving the existence of God, and demonstrating the existence of God. St Thomas Aquinas denies that the former is possible - the arguments from the Five Ways are an exercise in the latter.

      All of which leaves the dogmatic canons of Vatican I, teaching that God's existence can be known through creatures, as per Romans 1.20, completely undenied.

      If God could be proved to exist, he would not be God. He would be some idiotic little godling, like the "gods" of the heathen, that are "things of nought". Dei Filius is not describing anything as contemptible as that !
      Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 04-13-2016, 03:57 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
        The Fathers of Vatican I could hardly have been unaware that there is a difference between proving the existence of God, and demonstrating the existence of God. St Thomas Aquinas denies that the former is possible - the arguments from the Five Ways are an exercise in the latter.

        All of which leaves the dogmatic canons of Vatican I, teaching that God's existence can be known through creatures, as per Romans 1.20, completely undenied.

        If God could be proved to exist, he would not be God. He would be some idiotic little godling, like the "gods" of the heathen, that are "things of nought". Dei Filius is not describing anything as contemptible as that !
        Everything I'm seeing is that demonstrating and proving are synonyms. Care to give us your source that they are indeed different?

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        • #79
          I agree with Cerebrum here, and I don't see how the fact that we can prove the existence of God, and that He is omnipotent, omnipresent, the source of all goodness and the end of all being, would in any way detract from His Glory, or make Him anything less than what He is.

          The sense of St. Thomas Aquinas is that of a logical demonstration from empirical fact, such as motion, or final cause. He moves from these mundane observations, by deductive reasoning, to the existence of God, as well as some of His properties. This would in all ordinary terms of the word qualify as a proof. To him, you couldn't rationally deny the existence of this being, it would conflict with your experience as he would then proceed to argue.

          St. Thomas Aquinas did distinguish this from other aspects of God that required revelation, such as the nature of the Trinity. No one can appeal to mundane observations and conclude the Triune nature of God. The only way we can percieve this much greater aspect of God is by it being revealed as it is in Holy Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church Fathers.
          Last edited by Leonhard; 04-13-2016, 05:52 PM.

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