Universalism

[Turgonian]

Attention: No discussion about the truth or untruth of universalism in this thread

I just read that in the early church, the belief was widespread that everyone would be saved, and only afterwards (say, from the fifth century onwards) the doctrine of eternal Hell became popular, partly to keep the populace in fear. In fact it was claimed that in early times, there were six schools, four of which taught universalism; and of the remaining two, one taught annihilationism. Does anybody know if this is true?

[Turgonian]

They have a list of universalists here, including the prophets, Jesus Christ, Paul, John, Pantaenus, Clement, Origen, Athanasius, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, and John Chrysostom.

I smell a rat, I think... With so many people studying the Church Fathers, how come so many miss the universalism? Are these people trying to read things into the text which might be better interpreted another way?

[Amazing Rando]

Attention: No discussion about the truth or untruth of universalism in this thread

I just read that in the early church, the belief was widespread that everyone would be saved, and only afterwards (say, from the fifth century onwards) the doctrine of eternal Hell became popular, partly to keep the populace in fear. In fact it was claimed that in early times, there were six schools, four of which taught universalism; and of the remaining two, one taught annihilationism. Does anybody know if this is true?

The only Church Father I'm aware of who definitely believed in a form of universalist doctrine is Origen. Origen believed that because of the goodness of God, it was inevitable that even the devil himself would be saved.

[Turgonian]

That last post was...profound...

[Amazing Rando]

• Edited by a Moderator •

What in the heck? I didn't post that...

[Turgonian]

[FreezBee]

They have a list of universalists here, including the prophets, Jesus Christ, Paul, John, Pantaenus, Clement, Origen, Athanasius, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, and John Chrysostom.

I smell a rat, I think... With so many people studying the Church Fathers, how come so many miss the universalism? Are these people trying to read things into the text which might be better interpreted another way?

Hmmm, dunno; but if you want to read some arguments for Universalism in the Early Church, this paper should accommodate you: Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years by J.W. Hanson.

Said paper begins with this:

[cite=J.W. Hanson]The surviving writings of the Christian Fathers, of the first four or five centuries of the Christian Era, abound in evidences of the prevalence of the doctrine of universal salvation during those years. This important fact in the history of Christian eschatology was first brought out prominently in a volume, very valuable, and for its time very thorough: Hosea Ballou's "Ancient History of Universalism," (Boston, 1828, 1842, 1872). Dr. Ballou's work has well been called "light in a dark place," but the quotations he makes are but a fraction of what subsequent researches have discovered. [/QUOTE]

So, the interest in Universalism isn't something entirely new


- Freezbee

[Turgonian]

Do you have anti-stuff too, establishing that the early fathers didn't hold to Universalism?

[Amazing Rando]

Origen was a universalist for sure. The others... not so much.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Gregory of Nyssa was unambiguously a universalist. There is no dispute about that. Clement and Origen also. Apart from these three, there was no other writer who was clearly a universalist in the early period (though no doubt universalists will argue that there were, based on exegesis of what they said).

But Gregory of Nyssa, Clement and Origen, everyone grants, even the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology:

"Gregory's debt to Origen is visible in his universalist belief in the salvation of all things (apokatastasis), although he rejected Origen's view of the soul's preexistence" (p. 487, Gregory of Nyssa entry).

[Heartablaze]

Jesus could not be a universalist according to his own harsh words. Read through the gospel of Matthew. And John 14.
As for the prophets, I was recently reading Jeremiah, and this is what he says: Jeremiah 7:8-15 This is not universalist. How can one say that the prophets are universalist?

[Symeon]

I engaged in a brief argument about Universalism in the early church on an Orthodox forum. Most of the quotes used to support the view that Universalism was a widely held belief among the early Church Fathers are quite out of context. A good corrective to the tentmakers.com material is this lengthy series of articles from R. Grant Jones, a Western Rite Orthodox Christian, which can be accessed here. Also of interest is this collection of quotes.

That St. Gregory of Nyssa was not a Universalist can be deduced from the following quotation: "When you hear the word fire, you have been taught to think of a fire other than the fire we see, owing to something being added to that fire which is not in this. The fire which man will experience in the next life will be different from the fire of the present life. The fire of this life is extinguished in various ways, whereas the fire of the next life remains unextinguished. That fire, therefore, is something other than this." More on St. Gregory may be read in Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos' book Life After Death, the relevant chapter of which is here.

[Rusty T]

THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS, chapter XIV

whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, "We have not heard, neither have we known." But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God.

© source where applicable

The First Apology of Justin Martyr, Chapter XLV

And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire.

© source where applicable

Second Apology of Justin, Chapter I

For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and

© source where applicable

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV

Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it,—the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavour to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples.

© source where applicable

Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture II

A fearful thing is sin, and the sorest disease of the soul is transgression, secretly cutting its sinews, and becoming also the cause of eternal fire; an evil of a man’s own choosing, an offspring of the will.

© source where applicable

Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture XVIII

We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed.

© source where applicable

These are just a few of the dozens and dozens of references I found in the Fathers of the Church to eternal punishment. Not sure if that helps.

rusty

[Rusty T]

sorry, one of my quotes is screwy. you get the picture

[Turgonian]

Thanks a lot!