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This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
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The Future of Islam
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The abuse of the "chosen people" idea has led to harmful consequences. When human beings do good, there is no need, in our hearts, to justify or find excuses for it, but when we do harm/bad---it is common to justify.
The colonization efforts also used justifications such as "white man's burden" or "civilizing mission"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden
One view proposes that whites have an obligation to rule over, and encourage the cultural development of people from other cultural backgrounds until they can take their place in the world economically and socially. The term "the white man's burden" has been interpreted by some as racist, or possibly taken as a metaphor for a condescending view of "undeveloped" national culture and economic traditions, identified as a sense of European ascendancy which has been called "cultural imperialism".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilizing_mission
The intellectual origins of the mission civilisatrice can be traced back the Christian tradition dating from the Middle Ages. European thinkers had naturalized social change by using the development metaphor. In the eighteenth century history became to be seen as an unilinear unending inevitable process of social evolutionism with the European nations running ahead. Racists saw the "backward" nations as intrinsically incapable but the more "progressive" thinkers like the Marquis de Condorcet postulated a holy duty to help those peoples "which, to civilize themselves, wait only to receive the means from us, to find brothers among Europeans and to become their friends and disciples".
Evolutionist views survived colonialism. Modernization theorists declared that traditional customs had to be destroyed, traditional societies had to adapt or to disappear.
Development criticism sees development therefore as continuation of the colonial civilizing mission. To become civilized has always meant to become 'like us', therefore "Civilizing" now meant that in the long run all societies had to become consumer societies and renounce their native traditions and habits.
and American ideas of Manifest Destiny/American exceptionalism are also put to use for U.S. wars....
It is good to be proud of our achievements and it is necessary to have identity-perceptions---but when this becomes excessive, it falls into "Shirk". This is because claims of being special/chosen can lead to the mistaken belief that God is "ours" alone. To exclusively appropriate God is Shirk because (One) God is universal and is the creator of all human beings. God's compassion and mercy extends to all humanity regardless of our conceptions of God or the identity-labels we choose for ourselves.
Wahabism is worrisome. Most Wahabis are average, peaceful Muslims----but Wahabism is a "modern" idea that is exclusive and intolerant because of its strong identity-constructs. While people should have the right to believe what they feel is right for them, and diversity is important, it is also necessary to promote respect and dignity for all in an environment of equality and justice. We need to work towards a balance and harmony of the needs of individuals and groups in our global community.
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If one were to ask (in the "West) an open ended question such as does Secular Liberalism (political theory) need reform (and reform = improvement/betterment) the answer would easily be Yes...but if the assumption were that Secular Liberalism needs to reform into "Islamism" the answer would likely be a horrified NO!. ....
As Cesari explains...Modern Islamism is structurally the same as Modern Secularism---both use State power.
However, in terms of their (original) intentions both had similar ideas---the organization of people in a way that empowers them through a system of Balance of power.
Empowerment is ineffective unless one knows how to make use of it wisely---and for that a society needs an independent education system. Along with quality educational institutions, one also needs systems that will facilitate the smooth running of a society and this is done through Law/Judiciary. So, one could say that the 3 basic institutions that need to be independent of each other in order create balance are the State systems, the Judiciary systems and the Education systems....Diversity within these systems is an important way to create the freedom to progress and for improvement...so all these systems need to have multiplicity in their specific implementations, communally and/or regionally.
In order to have Liberty, a society/individual needs systems of empowerment (education, law, politics), So, if Liberty is the goal of any ideology/socio-political theory then these universal aspects need to be considered. Another universal aspect that needs to be considered is Economy. This is because full Liberty cannot be achieved in a state of poverty. Therefore, we need to consider an economic system that encourages and rewards human endeavors that generate profit while at the same time promotes the realization that the distribution of wealth for the empowerment and happiness of those in society is a socio-political and human responsibility.
These (universal) aspects are all interconnected so that any ideology/socio-political theory about Liberty should consider them together rather than separately.....however, how these universal pieces are structured, implemented, and labeled will depend on the specificity of the environment in which they are to be used.....Last edited by siam; 03-08-2016, 11:20 PM.
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Originally posted by siam View Post
If one were to ask (in the "West) an open ended question such as does Secular Liberalism (political theory) need reform (and reform = improvement/betterment) the answer would easily be Yes...but if the assumption were that Secular Liberalism needs to reform into "Islamism" the answer would likely be a horrified NO!. ....
As Cesari explains...Modern Islamism is structurally the same as Modern Secularism---both use State power.
However, in terms of their (original) intentions both had similar ideas---the organization of people in a way that empowers them through a system of Balance of power.
Empowerment is ineffective unless one knows how to make use of it wisely---and for that a society needs an independent education system. Along with quality educational institutions, one also needs systems that will facilitate the smooth running of a society and this is done through Law/Judiciary. So, one could say that the 3 basic institutions that need to be independent of each other in order create balance are the State systems, the Judiciary systems and the Education systems....Diversity within these systems is an important way to create the freedom to progress and for improvement...so all these systems need to have multiplicity in their specific implementations, communally and/or regionally.
In order to have Liberty, a society/individual needs systems of empowerment (education, law, politics), So, if Liberty is the goal of any ideology/socio-political theory then these universal aspects need to be considered. Another universal aspect that needs to be considered is Economy. This is because full Liberty cannot be achieved in a state of poverty. Therefore, we need to consider an economic system that encourages and rewards human endeavors that generate profit while at the same time promotes the realization that the distribution of wealth for the empowerment and happiness of those in society is a socio-political and human responsibility.
These (universal) aspects are all interconnected so that any ideology/socio-political theory about Liberty should consider them together rather than separately.....however, how these universal pieces are structured, implemented, and labeled will depend on the specificity of the environment in which they are to be used.....
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---My opinion is that the type of government makes little difference, theocracy, monarchy, democracy or any other organization of government (government = the management/administration of an organized society). What is more important is how does the "system" balance power---because without a balance of power, there will be a tendency/inevitability of an abuse of power which will lead to oppression....
---Most systems of law in Muslim-majority countries are hybrid systems because colonization destroyed the infrastructures of the "Islamic" system and replaced it with European ones....
---"Modern international law" or what passes as one---is inconsistent (with exceptions in cases of some types of commercial law perhaps). The well-armed nations exploit and/or oppress those that are weaker and get away with it. IMO, this is because "Western" ethical principles do not have a wholistic and robust understanding of the concept of Equality/Human dignity and because of this they have an inadequate concept of Justice.
---Insofar as religion posits that human beings are spiritual/have spirit----ethics and morality cannot be separated from living life ---because only a person striving for integrity and (noble) character can hope to be at "peace" spiritually. This means that all aspects of life (politics, economics, law, education,....etc) have to be governed by principles of ethics/morality in order to achieve inner and outer peace. Modernity is a mess because it does not get this!!!
If Bahai religion is "Modern" then it is doomed because "Modernity" is not in balance and harmony. The reason for that is because it is not a wholistic paradigm based on Unity (Tawheed) rather it is a divided world view that attempts to separate various aspects of life and living---Modernity has aspects that lean towards "Shirk"/Division. Contemporary religions (way of life)/spiritualities are not wrong, only, the default standard of comparison should not be "Modernity".
Liberty---In some historical trajectories---the concept of liberty developed from a condition of oppression (Feudalism) so that liberty came to be understood as freedom from oppression. But Islam is not just about the outer realities humanity finds itself in, but also the inner (spiritual) reality and so there is another dimension to "liberty" (similar to Buddhism)....The liberty of the spirit from the oppression of excessive desires. The way towards this dimension of liberty is submission (to God's will/law). This is because human nature was made with an inherent potential for peace (inner and outer peace) and by following the instructions of the "manufacturer" some measure of this potential can be achieved.
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Originally posted by siam View Post---My opinion is that the type of government makes little difference, theocracy, monarchy, democracy or any other organization of government (government = the management/administration of an organized society). What is more important is how does the "system" balance power---because without a balance of power, there will be a tendency/inevitability of an abuse of power which will lead to oppression....
---Most systems of law in Muslim-majority countries are hybrid systems because colonization destroyed the infrastructures of the "Islamic" system and replaced it with European ones....
---"Modern international law" or what passes as one---is inconsistent
The system of government is indeed the problem. The basic belief in Islam is a theocracy. You cannot blame the problems at present in Islamic countries, and claiming hybrid law does not apply, unless the Muslims wish this. In today's world Muslims rule Muslims in Islamic countries, The countries that claim pure Shiria are the countries that have the most problems relating to those outside the faithful individually or internationally outside Islam.
It is past time for you to stop scapegoating foreign countries and colonialism for the failure of Islam to effectively and equitably govern in most Islamic countries.
If Bahai religion is "Modern" then it is doomed because "Modernity" is not in balance and harmony. The reason for that is because it is not a wholistic paradigm based on Unity (Tawheed) rather it is a divided world view that attempts to separate various aspects of life and living---Modernity has aspects that lean towards "Shirk"/Division. Contemporary religions (way of life)/spiritualities are not wrong, only, the default standard of comparison should not be "Modernity".
Your posts remain rambling, inconsistent and hard to respond to.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostInternational Law is far more consistent an relevant today then any of the varied versions of Shiria. An important issue in the problem is Laws dealing with those outside Islam. In almost all Islamic countries it is punishable by death to convert to any other religions. and other religions are persecuted like the Baha'i Faith.
The system of government is indeed the problem. The basic belief in Islam is a theocracy. You cannot blame the problems at present in Islamic countries, and claiming hybrid law does not apply, unless the Muslims wish this. In today's world Muslims rule Muslims in Islamic countries, The countries that claim pure Shiria are the countries that have the most problems relating to those outside the faithful individually or internationally outside Islam.
It is past time for you to stop scapegoating foreign countries and colonialism for the failure of Islam to effectively and equitably govern in most Islamic countries.
You are using modernity in a different way. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are divided, contradictory, and in conflict, which is sufficient to consider them impotent when dealing with the world we know today.
Your posts remain rambling, inconsistent and hard to respond to.
Modernity---the heritage of the values and philosophies articulated by Enlightenment philosophers that are being played out in the present day. (my definition---sort of)
Diversity in religion---I am not in favor of a "universal religion" or a universal jurisprudence. The freedom of conscience (..and religion/way of life) would dictate that there be diversity within humanity. Without this we will be living under oppression. It is only the fact of having choices that guarantees our freedom.
Tawheed (Unity) does not imply nor force "sameness"---If God had intended sameness---he would have made us clones of each other---but he intended diversity. Therefore, humanity has to strive towards Unity within the framework of the diversity God intended. This means that human beings can experiment with multiple systems and use the one that suits them best.
This means that groups can choose to live under the leadership of theocrats, or monarchs, or philosophers, or even idiots if they so choose . But for this to work...choices must be available. If there is only one economic system, or political system, or judicial system...imposed by force onto everyone---this will lead to a lack of choices---and to oppression.
For us Muslims---in our history, we have a long period of time to look back on and to evaluate and analyze what systems worked and why--and what did not and why....so in contemplating our future we have the luxury of adapting successful "systems" to the new needs and environment we may find ourselves in. Modernization has been tried and it has not worked well. You too agree that Modern Islam is not working well----it is precisely the reason we Muslims need to find another way. Wahabism and ISIS is what we got with Modernity!!!
I am not scapegoating about law---this historical fact has been pointed out and verified by scholars who have done research---for example---Blasphemy law used in some Modern Muslim countries came from British law---not Sharia----though it is true Muslims now claim it. (Such laws are approx 18th century laws which were misogynist and unfair though at that time were the norm for the West---Also the Tanzimat "modernization project" of the Ottomans hybridized laws and some were inherited by Muslim countries) The study of law is founded on an education system and during colonization this was destroyed and often Christian schools and Western education replaced the original systems. In spite of this, Muslims adapted and moved forward---but now, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate....
Countries that claim Sharia---In modern nation-state systems---regardless of religion or no-religion---the state makes and/or approves the laws. Sharia (law) was not meant to be used/abused by state power---it was meant as a means to balance state power. Without a balance of power---abuse of power will occur ---and this is a point even enlightenment thinkers agreed with....which is why---in order to create this balance they came up with various degrees of secularism. This created a separation of powers between state and religion---but in classical Islam---this separation already existed and it was Modernity that unbalanced this power dynamic.
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Originally posted by siam View PostPosts hard to respond to---apologies, I am not sure how serious our discussion is...if we are just passing time on an interesting topic, I won't make an effort to go in-depth...but if there is serious interest in knowing about the various voices within Islam that are talking about the future--then we could go more in-depth, and I could bring up articles whose views I may or may not agree with....
Modernity---the heritage of the values and philosophies articulated by Enlightenment philosophers that are being played out in the present day. (my definition---sort of)
Diversity in religion---I am not in favor of a "universal religion" or a universal jurisprudence. The freedom of conscience (..and religion/way of life) would dictate that there be diversity within humanity. Without this we will be living under oppression. It is only the fact of having choices that guarantees our freedom.
Tawheed (Unity) does not imply nor force "sameness"---If God had intended sameness---he would have made us clones of each other---but he intended diversity. Therefore, humanity has to strive towards Unity within the framework of the diversity God intended. This means that human beings can experiment with multiple systems and use the one that suits them best.
This means that groups can choose to live under the leadership of theocrats, or monarchs, or philosophers, or even idiots if they so choose . But for this to work...choices must be available. If there is only one economic system, or political system, or judicial system...imposed by force onto everyone---this will lead to a lack of choices---and to oppression.
For us Muslims---in our history, we have a long period of time to look back on and to evaluate and analyze what systems worked and why--and what did not and why....so in contemplating our future we have the luxury of adapting successful "systems" to the new needs and environment we may find ourselves in. Modernization has been tried and it has not worked well. You too agree that Modern Islam is not working well----it is precisely the reason we Muslims need to find another way. Wahabism and ISIS is what we got with Modernity!!!
I am not scapegoating about law---this historical fact has been pointed out and verified by scholars who have done research---for example---Blasphemy law used in some Modern Muslim countries came from British law---not Sharia----though it is true Muslims now claim it. (Such laws are approx 18th century laws which were misogynist and unfair though at that time were the norm for the West---Also the Tanzimat "modernization project" of the Ottomans hybridized laws and some were inherited by Muslim countries) The study of law is founded on an education system and during colonization this was destroyed and often Christian schools and Western education replaced the original systems. In spite of this, Muslims adapted and moved forward---but now, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate....
Countries that claim Sharia---In modern nation-state systems---regardless of religion or no-religion---the state makes and/or approves the laws. Sharia (law) was not meant to be used/abused by state power---it was meant as a means to balance state power. Without a balance of power---abuse of power will occur ---and this is a point even enlightenment thinkers agreed with....which is why---in order to create this balance they came up with various degrees of secularism. This created a separation of powers between state and religion---but in classical Islam---this separation already existed and it was Modernity that unbalanced this power dynamic.
You have also failed to justify the repression under Islamic Law, which does not exist under Western and International Law. There is no western country that has a law where one may not convert to another religion under penalty of death. There is no western country where the Baha'i Faith is forbidden by Law.
Please respond where you have failed to do so . . . still waiting.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-02-2016, 02:03 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI consider the discussion serious and not casual.
This really is only a partial definition, and not adequate to find any fault in. The contribution of Enlightenment philosophers is indeed positive in the heritage of Western law today. The evolution of Constitutional Law and the separation of religion and state are also indeed positive contributions to modern international law.
This is admirable from your perspective, but it is a primarily Baha'i view of religion and the relationship with the diverse world beyond the Baha'i Faith, but unfortunately the diversity of religion and universal jurisprudence is not accepted in Islamic countries. The current Sharia Law does not acknowledge freedom of individual choice, and guarantees of freedom on the individual level.
Agreed from a Baha'i perspective, but not apparent in the Islamic world.
Again I agree, but but not apparent in the Islamic world. Individuals and groups are not allowed to choose anything outside Sharia Law.
This is most definitely an unfortunate scapegoat of the negative view you have of 'modernity,' which by the way does not reflect the somewhat vague definition you previously gave.
You most definitely are scapegoating the west and past history, and ignoring the fact that today Islamic countries are governed by Muslims and Shiria Law, and not Western Law. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Western education either, which evolved in large part from Islamic universities in Spain.
You will have to document this separation from religion and state, because based on scripture and history Islam is a theocracy and Sharia is the Law.
You have also failed to justify the repression under Islamic Law, which does not exist under Western and International Law. There is no western country that has a law where one may not convert to another religion under penalty of death. There is no western country where the Baha'i Faith is forbidden by Law.
Please respond where you have failed to do so . . . still waiting.
Religious freedom:-
http://karamah.org/wp-content/upload...onference1.pdf (Charter of Medina)
http://karamah.org/wp-content/upload...ians-final.pdf (Protection of Christians)
Hybrid laws:-
legal systems of the world---sorry, a bit difficult to see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...world_(en).png
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2100.html
other links:- (some voices of Muslims scholars)
http://tariqramadan.com/english/isla...nity-in-islam/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAgGB407FHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnwR5rhtgqQ
I gave links on the principle of religious diversity---however, as you mentioned, some Muslim-majority countries have tensions or persecutions of minorities. I will give links, in the next response, of voices of Muslim scholars considering this issue....
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Minorities and Equality
This is a complex topic because various countries have their own mix of socio-political dynamics---I previously touched on this issue in specific contexts---this time, will be Bahai and Iran---which also has its own context...
Firstly though, if there is any assumption that the West has been a paragon of virtue or that Islam is unique in its "xyz" ---this would be an incorrect assumption. Hate/prejudice are a universal human problem. Nevertheless, the universality of tribalism does not make it less wrong. If degrees of tribalism (hate/prejudice) is a human tendency, then expecting to eliminate it completely may be an utopian fantasy. Human diversity will create tensions. But when hate/prejudice is wielded by power, the degree of harm increases so much so that it becomes imperative to tackle such toxicity. (power = nation-state, judiciary, law enforcers, privileged elites...etc) Ethno-cultural tribalism existed in pre-modern times and its legacy still continues today but there are also "Modern" prejudices such as racism and nationalism, and other identity-constructs. (such as LGBT...etc) Both pre-Modern and Modern societies (Eastern and Western) have suffered and continue to suffer from prejudice. In the case of Iran, the State is involved in allowing prejudice against the Bahai.
Iran and Bahai---In Iran, some minorities are protected (in theory) by the constitution but both Muslim and non-Muslim minorities suffer from prejudice. Some minorities such as Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians have a reserved seat in parliament, others such as Mandeans, Bahai, Sufi...etc do not. In particular, Bahai are not considered a minority religion but a "heresy" of the particular school of Shia Islam practiced in Iran. (Twelvers). They are thus perceived (propaganda) as not loyal to Iran, making it easy to disguise the prejudice as a "National Security" issue. (...a common phenomenon of "Modernity").
Some voices of Muslims regarding this issue:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ives-hope-iran
http://www.bahairights.org/about/
Minority rights and Equality (General) ---Tawheed emphasizes unity, therefore, when we think about rights and responsibilities in a Tawhidic framework, it needs to be wholistic. The West/Modernity does not do this. There is a prevalence to divide issues of justice into groups such as Womens rights (Feminism) or Black Womens rights (Black Feminism), or Civil rights (Black men and womens rights) or LGBT rights, or minority rights or religious freedom issues or poverty...etc. The result, IMO, is that you get peicemeal/band-aid solutions to issues of justice and equality rather than systemic long-term solutions. It also does not confront the underlying philosophy and value systems that enable such injustice and inequality.
When tackling rights and responsibilities as a systemic issue, we need to consider the power dynamics effecting the systems and make provisions that will keep it in balance so that abuses will be minimized. But a wholistic system of balance of power requires consideration of many elements such as independent education institutes, independent judiciary, decentralized political systems, and ethical economics. Also---all of these systems should be in the framework of plurality so that people have choices.
These elements existed in what is called "Islamic civilization" to various degrees and so, what worked or did not can be evaluated....
Each region has its own specificity but here are some voices on the subject
http://tariqramadan.com/english/plur...anka-18092015/
http://karamah.org/wp-content/upload...Pluralism1.pdf
Marina Mahathir and her organization Sisters-in-Islam have also worked on "Minority rights" in S.E.A.
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Originally posted by siam View PostMinorities and Equality
This is a complex topic because various countries have their own mix of socio-political dynamics---I previously touched on this issue in specific contexts---this time, will be Bahai and Iran---which also has its own context...
Firstly though, if there is any assumption that the West has been a paragon of virtue or that Islam is unique in its "xyz" ---this would be an incorrect assumption. Hate/prejudice are a universal human problem.
I never described anything that must be 'a paragon of virtue' including Islam. No system religious nor secular will ever reach any such standard. The problem is how well Islam and Shiria functions in the real world. Too many of your sources describe academic apologist idealism, and this fails where the rubber meets road, the real Islam in today's world. You have failed to address the the fractious often bloody and violent division of Islam into Shia and Sunni that makes Islam impotent today for international leadership.
Nevertheless, the universality of tribalism does not make it less wrong. If degrees of tribalism (hate/prejudice) is a human tendency, then expecting to eliminate it completely may be an utopian fantasy. Human diversity will create tensions. But when hate/prejudice is wielded by power, the degree of harm increases so much so that it becomes imperative to tackle such toxicity. (power = nation-state, judiciary, law enforcers, privileged elites...etc) Ethno-cultural tribalism existed in pre-modern times and its legacy still continues today but there are also "Modern" prejudices such as racism and nationalism, and other identity-constructs. (such as LGBT...etc) Both pre-Modern and Modern societies (Eastern and Western) have suffered and continue to suffer from prejudice. In the case of Iran, the State is involved in allowing prejudice against the Bahai.
Iran and Bahai---In Iran, some minorities are protected (in theory) by the constitution but both Muslim and non-Muslim minorities suffer from prejudice. Some minorities such as Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians have a reserved seat in parliament, others such as Mandeans, Bahai, Sufi...etc do not. In particular, Bahai are not considered a minority religion but a "heresy" of the particular school of Shia Islam practiced in Iran. (Twelvers). They are thus perceived (propaganda) as not loyal to Iran, making it easy to disguise the prejudice as a "National Security" issue. (...a common phenomenon of "Modernity").
[quote]
Some voices of Muslims regarding this issue:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ives-hope-iran
http://www.bahairights.org/about/
Minority rights and Equality (General) ---Tawheed emphasizes unity, therefore, when we think about rights and responsibilities in a Tawhidic framework, it needs to be wholistic. The West/Modernity does not do this. There is a prevalence to divide issues of justice into groups such as Womens rights (Feminism) or Black Womens rights (Black Feminism), or Civil rights (Black men and womens rights) or LGBT rights, or minority rights or religious freedom issues or poverty...etc. The result, IMO, is that you get piecemeal/band-aid solutions to issues of justice and equality rather than systemic long-term solutions. It also does not confront the underlying philosophy and value systems that enable such injustice and inequality.
When tackling rights and responsibilities as a systemic issue, we need to consider the power dynamics effecting the systems and make provisions that will keep it in balance so that abuses will be minimized. But a wholistic system of balance of power requires consideration of many elements such as independent education institutes, independent judiciary, decentralized political systems, and ethical economics. Also---all of these systems should be in the framework of plurality so that people have choices.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-10-2016, 10:57 AM.
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Originally posted by siam View PostWestern Education---Yes there is good in Western/Modern Education, but they do not teach Islamic philosophy or Islamic Jurisprudence and without these two branches of knowledge, one should not expect it to re-produce the classical Sharia jurisprudence....The Enlightenment thinkers/philosophers borrowed from Islamic philosophy so their concerns and articulations have some similarities but they did not fully understand Tawheed and its ramifications so there are imbalances.
(Hybridization of law---will give link)
Yes, Dictatorships East and West are violations of International Law and have existed throughout history, even before there was ever a division between Western and Eastern cultures and religions. Westernization and Modernism should not be scapegoats for bad governments and dictatorships in the Islamic world cannot be totally blamed on the West. Shiria Law is the problem, and how it is enforced whether in a dictatorship or not.
All this is well and good, but does not address the problem of implementing Shiria in the today's world
Religious freedom:-
http://karamah.org/wp-content/upload...onference1.pdf (Charter of Medina)
http://karamah.org/wp-content/upload...ians-final.pdf (Protection of Christians)
Hybrid laws:-
legal systems of the world---sorry, a bit difficult to see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...world_(en).png
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2100.html
other links:- (some voices of Muslims scholars)
http://tariqramadan.com/english/isla...nity-in-islam/
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Thankyou for such a detailed response...and apologies for the long delay in answering...
As I understand it, your concerns are as follows:-- 1) "Islam in todays world" (and "Islam" here pertains to Sharia) 2) International law (specifically, minority rights) 3) Sunni Shia split 4) Heresy, Apostasy in Sharia, apart from these concerns, you have raised the point about "Islam" being taught in Western Universities---which I would also like to respond to....
1) "Islam" in "Modernity"---Philosophy (ethics/Morality) and Paradigm (world-view) of both Islam and Modernity have similarities---in terms of Paradigm---Modernity is based on Individualism (primacy of the human) and "Natural Law" (as understood through science)---Islamic Paradigm also respects both aspects (...with "Natural Law understood to be part of the overall Divine Law, physics balanced by metaphysics) and Individualism balanced with communal/social nature (...and in which rights are balanced by responsibilities)
As you can see---Islam has all the aspects of Modern paradigm---but balances it far better than "Modernity" does....This is also the case with the philosophy of ethics/morality---in particular the major concepts of Equality and Justice. This discrepancy can partly be attributed to the environment---(Western) Modernity developed from a feudal environment whereas Islam developed in a trading (global trading) environment---so that a hierarchical reality was much stronger in a Feudal system than in a trade/industrialized system. IMO, this effected how one understood "Equality". Without an adequate understanding of the concept of Equality---one cannot arrive at a balanced understanding of Justice. And you can see this clearly in how "Modernity" privileges the super-rich. (...as well as in other areas...)
Modern Islam---Where Fiqh (Law) has strayed away from its Tawhidic principles---it has become unjust. This is a problem of Modernity and insofar as all political, legal, educational, and economic systems are "Modern" we need to re-align those aspects that are unbalanced with a more balanced and wholistic Tawhidic paradigm. Power dynamics are an important consideration in this re-alignment. Without a proper balance of power, full Justice or Equality can never be achieved. (Equality does not mean "sameness").
2)International law---there are many good aspects to International law---but enforcement is inconsistent and arbitrary which makes it unjust....particularly because the powerless (undeveloped) countries have no recourse in this system---the developed (powerful) are the ones who make demands and enforce their demands....for example, when the U.S. attacked Iraq and Afghanistan---no one attacked the U.S. but when Iraq attacked Kuwait---the U.S. attacked Iraq "in defense" of Kuwait.....International Law is made by the privileged for the benefit of the privileged....but all Modern Laws are based on this principle---which is why for example---the rich multinational corporations can get away with various "legal" tax havens...until the laws are changed to make what was legal into "illegal"...likewise...what was illegal---such as wiretaps, torture, imprisonment without cause or due process...etc can become legal...because those in power want it so....
3) Sunni/Shia---There is no real doctrinal difference between Sunni and Shia----yes, there are artificial differences with both sides claiming some practices of the other are ignorant....but this is because these are identity- constructs and so are exploited for geopolitical reasons....but then, other identity constructs such as nationalism (or "civilization") are also exploited for geo-political reasons. Today this identity-construct is being exploited because of rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran. I assume you know the history---so I won't go into it unless you are interested...if so, pls ask.....
4) Heresy, Apostasy---I don't know much about Bahai (or Iranian laws)---here in the East the Ahmadiya (?) are probably the ones likely to fall into what I term the "grey area". In Islam the term "Prophet" (understood as messenger of God) falls into two main categories (with perhaps a sub category also) the Messenger(Prophet) as Lawgiver and the Messenger (Prophet) as Guide and reminder...(and sub category of Wisdom Teacher). The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is understood as the final Lawgiver and this is why the Quran is protected where the previous books/laws were not...In the case of the Ahmadiya (as I understand---but could be wrong)Their "Prophet" is a Messiah that is a likeness of Prophet Jesus (?) or some similar claim...and apparently their tafsir of the Quran interprets passages so as to align with such claims.... Every religion has a right to define the parameters of its own doctrines...yet must also allow for tolerance and diversity within and without. Islam has much narrower parameters of self-definition and so is perhaps less diverse than religions such as Christianity or Hinduism, but there is nevertheless diversity within those parameters. But some groups are outside of these parameters---another example is the Nation of Islam in the U.S. which also claimed a "Prophet" and advocated for some doctrines that did not align with Islam...but there are groups within both the Ahmadiya and NOI communities that have re-aligned with mainstream Islamic beliefs..(or so I have heard)...so it is a complex picture....
Then there are the Wahabis and worse, the more extreme toxic exclusivists such as ISIS whose self-definition of Muslim is so narrow that they exclude everyone but themselves from it. Mainstream Muslims need to find a balance that allows them to have a sense of identity (self-definition) without such an identity construct becoming exclusivist and toxic. A more active engagement with minority communities along with laws that safeguard the interests and rights of the minorities would help bring better justice....
Identity-constructs can be exploited for political gains and any minority can become a scapegoat---much like Muslims have continued to become scapegoats in every recent U.S. election cycle. That is why a comprehensive system of justice must address the issues of power dynamics in society. Modern society is imbalanced so the problems of modernity affect all humanity.
Apostasy---As mentioned previously, before the nation-state emerged as an identity construct---ethnicity and tribal affiliations defined identity constructs. The responsibility of the protection of the community (both Muslim and Non-Muslim members) was on the Muslim. Therefore, in a time of war, a Muslim man leaving Islam to join the enemy camp would have been treason...the same as an American citizen renouncing his citizenship to join the Russian army or KGB or such. In both cases...the treason is in the act of betrayal by joining the enemy and not necessarily the act of disowning a particular identity-construct. The Quran advocates for freedom of conscience/religion and so does not punish those who leave Islam (Kaffir). The Quranic term (Kafir) refers to intentions (heart)---but Fiqh (law) is not concerned with the heart---it is concerned with harmful actions. Therefore in order for an apostate (murtad) to be convicted of treason...there needs to be evidence of it. Today "apostacy" (IMO) is often used as a political tool much like the sedition laws of any Modern nation-state. When laws are made by the powerful for the benefit of the powerful....then it is to be expected that liberties will be curtailed and equality and justice be compromised. We could fiddle with unjust laws to make them better...but how long will this last? It seems to me...rather than apply a temporary Band-Aid to the problem...why not fix it at the structural and systemic level? This means that the legal system has to work for the benefit of the powerless, the marginalized and the average citizen as well as remain just to the powerful, the rich and privileged so that rights are balanced by responsibilities. To enable such a structural reform---law (jurisprudence) has to be independent from the state (administrative power)
It is this---the structural and systemic aspects of our political, economic, legal, and educational institutions that we need to change for the better and this begins at the foundation---which is philosophy. However, we also need to acknowledge there is no single correct answer, rather there are multiple correct answers---because there are multiple paradigms (world-views) among humanity. That is why any system that advocates for a singular/mono system (sameness) will be unjust. In order to have justice that is global in scale---we need to think in terms of Pluralism. Since a degree of Pluralism was already practiced in what is called the Islamic "civilization" (I don't agree with the term....) it would be good to learn from its best practices as well as from its mistakes....
Education---While "Islam" as a religion is taught in the West---Eastern philosophy (Including Islamic philosophy) is not taught and if it is---it is an extension of religion. The default paradigm in western education is that of "Secular"---that is, metaphysics is taken out of all epistemology/knowledge unless it is taught as "religion". If we are to develop respect for all paradigms (world-views) then it has to begin with reforming our education systems so that equal respect and dignity is given to diverse paradigms....and the ethical/moral principles such paradigms produce....
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Power-dynamics and marginalization. --- In order to understand these two aspects, we need to acknowledge that individuals have many identity-constructs and as members of groups, these identity constructs may have areas of overlap with other groups. This complicates power relations. Power-dynamics is itself related to identity-constructs because one group of people are privileged over another. This also means that oppression and injustice may come from many areas/groups and the experiences of it may be different in different geo-political, economic or socio-cultural contexts.
As an ethical/moral problem, power-dynamics and marginalization/alienation needs to be tackled in terms of conceptualizing principles of justice and equality but it also needs to be solved at the specificity of its occurrence within the framework of the context it takes place in.
This article makes this point in the context of identity constructs and globalization:- https://www.worldpittsburgh.org/4925-2/
"Islamic feminism" or activists advocating for (Tawhidic) equality---have been uncomfortable with the fractured and divisive paradigm of "Western" feminism which assumed a binary in the "gender struggle" of women vs men. In Islamic/Tawhidic paradigm---all oppression---not just gender oppression---is wrong....therefore the struggle against oppression and towards justice needs to encompass all marginalized people.
The idea of "intersectionality" which assumes that a person has multiple-identity constructs which are impacted by injustice and oppression in different ways---is one way to discard a simplistic binary mode of thinking and embracing complexity.....
some opinions on this issue:-
http://postcolonialist.com/civil-dis...rsectionality/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DW4HLgYPlA
One way to understand our identity-constructs---is to begin with our name---which differentiates us from others---in particular within our families....and move on to various groups and identities we hold,... to the ending point which is the "family of humanity" (bani Adam). This conceptualization might be helpful in negotiating the various tensions, constraints and intersections of our various identity-constructs....?....
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Originally posted by siam View PostCountries that claim Sharia---In modern nation-state systems---regardless of religion or no-religion---the state makes and/or approves the laws. Sharia (law) was not meant to be used/abused by state power---it was meant as a means to balance state power. Without a balance of power---abuse of power will occur ---and this is a point even enlightenment thinkers agreed with....which is why---in order to create this balance they came up with various degrees of secularism. This created a separation of powers between state and religion---but in classical Islam---this separation already existed and it was Modernity that unbalanced this power dynamic.
Need more explanation of your claim that Islamic Sharia Law is compatable with International Law. The following is a good example and there will be more cited. Not other problems with minority religions in Indonesia. These problems are not related to Western influence.
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