Faith is wrong wrong wrong

[the_light]

The faith game seems twisted to me. Some get a chance to turn to Christ, but because of their knowledge base or experiences, choose not to.... It seems to me that making that decision should not merit eternal damnation...

Some typical responses...

1) God's existence is clear as day, and rejecting God's gift is something those people will take responsibility for.

2) The Holy Spirit will do its work. Rejection of Christ comes on many levels, not just intellectual.

3) We do not know who is going to hell... And besides, God is just, and we have faith in His perfect justice.

I'll go ahead and respond to these up front...

1) God's existence was clear as day 2000 years ago. Those were ignorant days for mankind, and in this day and age people get sick because of germs & cancer. Lightening, fire, seasons, and the movement of the heavenly bodies occur for obvious reasons.

It is not evil or wrong to conclude that what science can't yet answer should not be attributed to ancient mysticism.

Personally, I have no “beef” with God. My conclusions are based on the evidence I have surveyed (and as someone who argued for Christianity for a number of years, I’ve seen a lot of “evidence”!)

2) This is your faith speaking. Its nonsense to those that don’t believe, and in terms of an argument it means nothing, mainly because it is one of the myriad theological doctrines that cannot be proved or disproved.

3) According to the Bible its pretty clear who’s saved and who’s not. Besides, I’m not talking in greys - denying the existence of god himself is certainly way out of bounds. Claims to God’s perfect justice are once again... nonsense in an apologetics discussion.

[nickcopernicus]

Nick:

Welcome to Theologyweb, the_light. I'd recommend you start a thread with a post that is somewhat less incoherent. Your post seems pretty hostile. I'd suggest you wait until everyone has gotten to know you a little better before trolling. No doubt, I do tend to rant on sometimes, but it's not really conducive to rational discourse between believers and non-believers.

In anycase, "faith" as you described is not likely to describe the faith that the majority of Twebber Christians use here so your argument doesn't apply to the majority of them. But it will get them mad. Google "pistis"

Cheers,

Nick

[lilpixieofterror]

So light, you want to blame everybody else but yourself for your choices?

[nickcopernicus]

Nick:

Crystal, I expected something...well, different from you..

Cheers,

Nick

[lilpixieofterror]

Crystal, I expected something...well, different from you..

I can't assume he's simply a troll, until I have enough evidence of that. As such... I'm going to assume he's an honest seeker.

[the_light]

<sigh>

So I'm hostile and incoherent? I've been reading this forum for a little while... and I didn't think I was THAT far off base with this question/approach...

Is it okay if I point out that lilpixieofterror completely bypassed everything I said... resorting to a personal attack?

While I'm the new person being glared at... can I ask... how do I specify my gender? Somewhere along the line I indicated 'undisclosed'... I'm not seeing gender in my profile options

P.S.... haven't decided if I'm a troll... for now I'll be the annoying random guy in the tight-knit group

[lilpixieofterror]

Is it okay if I point out that lilpixieofterror completely bypassed everything I said... resorting to a personal attack?

Where did I personally attack you? You seem to want to blame God for the actions you have taken. If you choose not to follow God, why should you blame God for your own actions? BTW... it seems you have a hard time paying attention since I clearly said (in your defense):

I can't assume he's simply a troll, until I have enough evidence of that. As such... I'm going to assume he's an honest seeker.

It wasn't me implying you were trolling, I was simply asking you a question and it appears you do not want to answer it. Why is that?

While I'm the new person being glared at... can I ask... how do I specify my gender? Somewhere along the line I indicated 'undisclosed'... I'm not seeing gender in my profile options

You're not the first new member to complain about that... I'll have to ask the techs to look into it. Meanwhile, I can always have one of the Deans update your profile with the right gender. Are you male or female?

P.S.... haven't decided if I'm a troll... for now I'll be the annoying random guy in the tight-knit group

I've met plenty of trolls, and you don't seem the type.

[the_light]

YAH... I don't seem trollish!...

I took your response as a personal attack because... well... it seemed like it at the time. But nevermind... you actually have a point. I would blame God. That isn't exactly "everybody else"... but its the same idea.

Faith seems like a game. A game God could have chosen not to play. He chose "#1"... when he could have chosen the 2nd or 3rd options. Both are great alternatives. Suffering was Adam and Eve's choice... but it was just as much God's.

(I'm male)

[lilpixieofterror]

Faith seems like a game. A game God could have chosen not to play. He chose "#1"... when he could have chosen the 2nd or 3rd options. Both are great alternatives. Suffering was Adam and Eve's choice... but it was just as much God's.

(I'm male)

And if God came in all his glory. Would you choose him out of love or fear?

BTW, I'll be sure to IM one of the deans then and see if they can update your profile.

[nickcopernicus]

<sigh>

So I'm hostile and incoherent? I've been reading this forum for a little while... and I didn't think I was THAT far off base with this question/approach...

Is it okay if I point out that lilpixieofterror completely bypassed everything I said... resorting to a personal attack?

While I'm the new person being glared at... can I ask... how do I specify my gender? Somewhere along the line I indicated 'undisclosed'... I'm not seeing gender in my profile options

Nick:

Please note exactly what I wrote.
I'd recommend you start a thread with a post that is somewhat less incoherent. Your post seems pretty hostile.. I did not refer to you as "hostile and incoherent." I noted that your post seemed so.

Let me do something "wild." I'm going to put on a Christian hat okay?

the_light:
The faith game seems twisted to me. Some get a chance to turn to Christ, but because of their knowledge base or experiences, choose not to.... It seems to me that making that decision should not merit eternal damnation...

Nick:
Faith is not a "game", rather it is a measure or degree of belief. A conviction if you will.
You seem to argue that it's not fair that because some people haven't chosen Christ based on their experiences, they get damned. Have you considered that perhaps some (not all) of these people simply deny the truth? Or perhaps they haven't studied the evidence as much as they should have. Instead of appealing to antedotal evidence. What knowledge base and or experiences have led you to not want to follow Christ?

the_light:
Some typical responses...

1) God's existence is clear as day, and rejecting God's gift is something those people will take responsibility for.

Nick:
For some, this is the case. However not all Christians would argue this. IMO, God is much more nuanced and subtle then the would be tyrant that some paint him as. If he just appeared before you, then you wouldn't have much of a choice in believing or not.

the_light:
2) The Holy Spirit will do its work. Rejection of Christ comes on many levels, not just intellectual.

Nick:
Our spirits are corrupted by sin. We must fight past it and accept the gift that has been given to us.

the_light:
3) We do not know who is going to hell... And besides, God is just, and we have faith in His perfect justice.

Nick:
Can't argue with that.

the_light:
I'll go ahead and respond to these up front...

1) God's existence was clear as day 2000 years ago. Those were ignorant days for mankind, and in this day and age people get sick because of germs & cancer. Lightening, fire, seasons, and the movement of the heavenly bodies occur for obvious reasons.

It is not evil or wrong to conclude that what science can't yet answer should not be attributed to ancient mysticism.

Nick:
Where are Christians appealing to ancient mysticism?

the_light:
Personally, I have no “beef” with God. My conclusions are based on the evidence I have surveyed (and as someone who argued for Christianity for a number of years, I’ve seen a lot of “evidence”!)

Nick:
What kind of evidence would convince you?

the_light:
2) This is your faith speaking. Its nonsense to those that don’t believe, and in terms of an argument it means nothing, mainly because it is one of the myriad theological doctrines that cannot be proved or disproved.

Nick:
But of course it would seem esoteric to those who don't understand. While Christianity itself is not an elitist organization, some of the doctrinal phrases may seem esoteric to unbelievers. The answer is to ask for clarification. What exactly do you want to know here? What doesn't make sense?

the_light:
3) According to the Bible its pretty clear who’s saved and who’s not. Besides, I’m not talking in greys - denying the existence of god himself is certainly way out of bounds. Claims to God’s perfect justice are once again... nonsense in an apologetics discussion.

Nick:
If the bible is clear about who is saved and not saved, then I'm sure you can provide some sort of scriptural evidence to back this claim up.


Okay that was "fun."
Obviously I don't agree with the responses I got, but were I a Christian, probably, I'd sound something like that.

The reason I called your post "incoherent" is because you never really addressed the title in depth. What do you think faith is? Why would Christians use it? What are its purposes?

If you can invalidate some of their answers to these questions, then it would help support "faith is wrong, wrong, wrong" (the hostile part)....

I'm probaly the last person who should be saying things about being hostile, because "Mephistopheles knows", I get carried away myself quite often. They don't call me a "rabid atheist" for nothing. I just want you to have a good time at Tweb, and starting a thread as you did my get you some responses that make you want to leave or something. *shrugs* I just did not think you'd like the way it turned out. I apologize if I seemed condescending or something.

In any case, that's just my $.02.

Cheers,

Nick

[nickcopernicus]

I can't assume he's simply a troll, until I have enough evidence of that. As such... I'm going to assume he's an honest seeker.

Whatever Crystal. When I first got here, my posts were pretty docile. You had no qualms about "tearing into me." I'm a "fundy atheist", remember?

Cheers,

Nick

[the_light]

K, thanks for the profile update...

And if God came in all his glory. Would you choose him out of love or fear?

That is a crazy proposition... All his glory is QUITE unnecessary. A little evidence would be nice...

[lilpixieofterror]

Whatever Crystal. When I first got here, my posts were pretty docile. You had no qualms about "tearing into me." I'm a "fundy atheist", remember?

I tend to have a pretty good sense about people.

[lilpixieofterror]

That is a crazy proposition... All his glory is QUITE unnecessary. A little evidence would be nice...

And what about the thousands of believers? What about the historical? The scientific? The philosophical? He made his existence compelling, but not convincing, do you think there could be a reason for it?

[nickcopernicus]

Nick:

I'm not sure what you mean.


Nick