what is the point of un ending torment

[Whipartist]

why cant they be forgiven, they made a mistake.... why wont god forgive the mistake?

Sin is not just a mistake. It is wrong. It is evil, diabolical, horrible, reprehensible. Did Hitler make a mistake when He slaughtered the Jews mercilessly? Do those who traffic and hold women and children in bondage to prostitution merely make mistakes? How about those who torture Christians for their faith by lighting them on fire and slaughtering them with machetes?

They are doing evil and unless they repent and change their ways, from hate to love, they should face justice. They are evil and nothing can change them, not even hell. That's why they deserve it. If they did not recognize the value of the lives they destoryed and of their own life, then their punishment would be nill anyway. Pain has a way of making one face what he is. If a person hates pain, then why inflict it mercilessly? A gun wouldn't be a gun if it couldn't kill. And a human life isn't valuable unless when it is devalued, severe consequences ensue. You can't play with fire without getting burned. If you could, it wouldn't be fire. This is life and every day we live in it as an amazing privelege.

why is death set up as a point of no return?

The grave is the natural place for judgment. When you're dead, your activity under the sun has ceased and thus any chance for reformation. Hell isn't life, it's death. Why would there be a chance for reformation in a place in which choices are empty and void? Death is stillness and eternal. Once a person dies, what they were in this life is set in stone and cannot be undone. They chose it, they lived with it, now they must die with it. Anyone can do good in his life. It's an obviously important thing to do. Do onto others as you would have them do to you.

why cant god present people with the truth in a more believable fashion?

The truth is everywhere. The stones cry it out. It's so obvious that it can't be missed. It's repressed by humanity and they've all decided to do it together as a culture. It's not cool to not do wrong with other people. It makes them feel judged. Oh well, I choose to live in reality instead of pretending that my enemy deserves the evil I want to do to him.

why have the requirements for salvation sit upon the beliefs that fallible and fickle and imperfect humans hold in their heads?

Your question is entirely valid but irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned. Many people think that salvation comes down to beliefs, but it does not. Salvation comes down to worshipping the true God and obeying Him in doing righteous deeds. How you live is going to determine your eternal destiny. Not what you believe in your head.

what if one day I feel like a christian and another day I feel like Ive just bee brainwashed.

does god accept this skeptical approach?

Whatever you feel is irrelevant. God requires faithfulness, but is still there to forgive even after failure. Whatever you feel, keep on following God and don't give up. He's there, I promise. You probably have been brainwashed. We all face it daily. Prayerfully study the Bible for help.

can it be that god is so mechanical that after everything we humans go through he boils our existence down to a checklist of belief in jesus?

Absolutely not. Whether you believe in Jesus or not is only part of the question. What it all boils down to is how you live in response to having heard about Jesus. And if you hadn't heard about Him, it still boils down to how you live. One day we will all be called to account for how we've treated our fellow men.

Heaven and hell are not based on realities as arbitrary as a person's beliefs. They are based on how a person lives.

I hope that helps.

[shadowman]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

[M.Talkingsworth]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Hi Shadowman,

Out of curiosity, do you work for Shadowmaster? Just a little t-web joke there...


So the idea of lots of people, most actually according to Jesus (or so it would seem) spending the rest of forever in unending torment makes you a little squeamish, does it? Well, good, that means you are normal. It makes me pretty sick to think about it too. Also, as you seem to be hinting at, it really does not seem to make too much sense. Well, it does not make sense to me either. It is possible to make a defense for annihilationism based on reasoning from scripture. The idea is not without its problems, but I have seen a pretty good case made for it by Theonomy, a.k.a Jack Bauer, a.k.a whatever else he has changed his name to recently. I declare, this name switchery here at T-Web makes me do cheetah flips!

Anyway, I also think that it is a possibility that humans *cannot* be destroyed once they are made. Perhaps hell is the only option for those who do not choose God. I think that this idea has some holes in it, but it is something to think about.

Either way, I'm with you. Eternal torment does not intuitively make sense. Perhaps scripture has been misunderstood or perhaps there are other parameters we are not aware of which would clarify the matter.

Cheers,

Matt

[god rules]

what about the question of being luke warm? the luke warm he shall spew out of his mouth.

[mickiel]

In my view, there is no point to unending torment. And no possible way to support the point using Gods characther, Gods common sense, his mercy or his love and wisdom. None of those things can be used to justify such a belief.

But it is more than just a belief, it is a religion within itself. It is not just a belief, I think it is an inward desire of those who hold to it, and willnot release it. Its what they want to do with unbelievers. They want them to be tortured. Its a desire. I wouldnot believe in anything that I personally do not desire or agree with. So I cannot believe in hell torment, I neither desire it for myself or others.

Everything in the bible that I have accepted, I agree with 100 %. What I agree with, I desire it, and I admire it. I do not agree with eternal misery, and I do not see God as being that kind of being would would allow its existance. I ask forgiveness for stating this, because I know many here hold to this so strongly. This subject is a main reason I parted company with the beliefs of any religion that has accepted this unusual interpitation of what they believe God will do.

Its such a horrible thing for hearts filled with love to accept and believe. I honestly don't see how people do it.

Peace.

[god rules]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

our rightiousness is as filthy rags. we are only saved by the blood of jesus.

[god rules]

how do you know that it is dependant on how we live. what if I live as good as I can, but think "eh that jesus thing doesnt make enough sense, Ill go with taoism or something like that?"

what if I started out praying to jesus, but in my later years I lose faith?

In my view, there is no point to unending torment. And no possible way to support the point using Gods characther, Gods common sense, his mercy or his love and wisdom. None of those things can be used to justify such a belief.

But it is more than just a belief, it is a religion within itself. It is not just a belief, I think it is an inward desire of those who hold to it, and willnot release it. Its what they want to do with unbelievers. They want them to be tortured. Its a desire. I wouldnot believe in anything that I personally do not desire or agree with. So I cannot believe in hell torment, I neither desire it for myself or others.

Everything in the bible that I have accepted, I agree with 100 %. What I agree with, I desire it, and I admire it. I do not agree with eternal misery, and I do not see God as being that kind of being would would allow its existance. I ask forgiveness for stating this, because I know many here hold to this so strongly. This subject is a main reason I parted company with the beliefs of any religion that has accepted this unusual interpitation of what they believe God will do.

Its such a horrible thing for hearts filled with love to accept and believe. I honestly don't see how people do it.

Peace.

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

[mickiel]

I disagree that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did heaven, those who repeat that statisitc perhaps show how little they read the bible. The need for a Savior and the Reason for Salvationis is sin, we are being saved from sin, not saved from Hell. If you think the only reason Christ is relevant is because of hell, in my view, such a view of Christ is shallow.

Many believe in eternal torture because they see a few verses in the bible, and have made those verses doctrines of belief, and desires of themselves. The two reasons people adhere to eternal hell punishment, is because they believe it, and desire it.

Every doctrine in scripture I have accepted, I wholeheartly desire it. Now, believers in hell punishment will never admit that they desire it, to themselves or to God. So one needs to ask themselves why there is something in Gods word that they believe and accept, but really do not desire. If they show the courage to admit that they really do desire it, well then we will see whats really in the heart.

And they are trying to convince us that that " Weirdness" is in Gods heart also. I will never accept that Gods heart is anything like the beliefs and interpitations of men.

I offer my humble apology for not agreeing with those who are spreading this belief.

Peace.

[shadowman]

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

isnt jesus mostly interested in how we come to know the father?

[shadowman]

our rightiousness is as filthy rags. we are only saved by the blood of jesus.

even if we are all screwed up, we shouldnt be eternally cut off/tortuured... whatever. its just not what you do with conscious beings.... unless you are a big meanie. it a hard stance for a human to relate too.

[M.Talkingsworth]

If you read the bible jesus talks more about hell than he does about heaven. If there wasn't a place hell consisting of eternal separation from god than why the need for a savior? This would make the death and resurrection of Christ irrelevant.

I think Jesus would be equally as relevant if there was a different sort of punishment such as annihailation, or purgatory. I also echo that Jesus is relevant for his power to release people from the bondage of sin regardless of any potential punishment he may or may not rescue us from.

Another thought:

Sin is defined by some as separation from God. Hell is described as eternal separation from God. Sin is also described as *THE* problem with creation. By making hell eternal, God would be, in a manner of thinking, intentionally prolonging the problem with creation. Eliminating the wicked and retaining the righteous sees as though it would be a much cleaner way to deal with sin. Also somewhat kinder. Still just, too since the wicked are punished and are unable to perpitrate any more wickedness.

Thoughts?


God Bless,

Matt

[shadowman]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?

I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

[M.Talkingsworth]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

The Bible presupposes the deity of Jesus as an obvious fact, therefore it follows that only wicked people would reject the obvious Son of God. Therefore in the Biblical view, the two are synonymous. Of course, it does not make sense that someone who has never heard of Jesus is automatically wicked (unless you take the position that people are born wicked, which I do not) since they clearly did not have a choice in the matter.

why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?

It is possible that the removal of "wickedness" is not something that can be passively applied to an individual. Perhaps wickedness is such that the individual must make a choice. I would imagine that the choosing ability inherent in humanity would play into this somehow.

I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

I think that this may be some of it too. I have often found that I must understand the evil in something before I am able to cast it off. Perhaps God is actually teaching us things through our choice to reject wickedness and subsuquent struggle.

Cheers,

Matt

[Narnian]

to make god happy?

who benefits?

Good point Shadowman.

I like Pope JP's explanation;

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...071999_en.html

Why is this in Unorthodox theology? Who said unending torment was orthodox?

[god rules]

does wicked mean the people who dont believe in jesus, or those who reject the holy spirit?

why cant god just remove the wickedness from everyone, like he does with the people hes grooming for his heaven club?

I want my wickedness removed, but I can't see labeling myself as "A WICKED" nor can I make sense of labeling others as simply "A WICKED"

So should your boss do all your work at your job while you receive the paycheck?