For NathanielS: Let's Thrash "Jesusfamilies.org"

[DesertBerean]

that guy is a genuine cult leader in the making

I have read the "What Do We Believe" article. I don't think he can be a cult leader because he won't be leading much of a group at all. When the believers are not required to all goose step to some rigid set of rules they don't stick together with the leader. He IS rigid (and mistaken) on the "Jesus's Words" principle but that's it. The inconsistency of his statements is enough to prevent cultic behavior I would think.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Actually I disagree - he does have some very rigid rules, and this may seem really subjective, but whenever you see "family" capitalized in that creepy was that he does so regularly, it smacks of compounds and brainwashing.

[DesertBerean]

For any who are interested, I did write up my blog tonight on Tim Spiess and his view of the Trinity. http://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/20...rinitarianism/

Maybe it's my browser settings...your quotes from his site are outsized and the lines run together ... ?

[Crow]

We need a new beatitude for that guy.

Something like "Blessed are those who expound upon scripture but who are woefully and willfully ignorant of that of which they speak, for they shall be blissfully unaware of how idiotic they sound."

[DesertBerean]

Hrmmm....the more I read, the more I was reminded of some stuff I had seen years ago. Still researching but I've come across some similiarites to the "Jesus Christians" which owe a lot of their teachings to the "Family/Children of God" group.

[DesertBerean]

Too bad his website's not doing too well

Following an example I found in an article discussing if Christions should be rich, I typed "Rich Christians" in Google, and the first link coming up was this one that took me back to the jesusfamilies.org. Obviously since Google ranks results by how many times they were accessed, who knows?

[NathanielS]

I think Jesus Christians has a link to his site. I tried backtracking www.jesusfamilies.org (looked up the address itself on google and metacrawler) and it shows that the JCians link to his site.

[OldManZangetsu]

no more postulating from me

Though, more on his Pelagianism

http://www.jesusfamilies.org/pamphle...JesusStand.htm

Then the others stood up, one by one, saying
-------------------
....
....
“jesus was the son of God and he came to forgive us our sins”
...
...
...
“jesus was the lamb of God who came to pay for our sins by spilling his blood for us”
...
...
“jesus was God who came to be the sacrifice that God required in order to forgive us”
...
...
--------------
The Real Jesus sat patiently listening. As each person stood up and said who they thought he was and why they thought he came, the Real Jesus would eagerly await the right answer.
...
the right answer?
...
“you search the scriptures and cherish your bible, and yet their purpose is to point you to me so that you will come to me to have Life, and yet you refuse to come to me”

What a confused individual. Again, contrast that to his conversation with Sally

[Cubelodyte]

Too bad his website's not doing too well

..Though I must say this thread has significantly increased the daily hitcount for my site.

Good luck arguing with this fellow, guys. He's a real treat to deal with in a purely earthbound context; that was more than enough for me. It was difficult enough to convince him he was wrong or mistaken even when hard data was available to refute his claims.

I'm certainly no theologian, amateur or otherwise, and have little knowledge of Scripture, but I'd have to say that though he may well humble himself before God, he holds himself high above other men, even if it isn't consciously.

[DesertBerean]

..Though I must say this thread has significantly increased the daily hitcount for my site.

Good luck arguing with this fellow, guys. He's a real treat to deal with in a purely earthbound context; that was more than enough for me. It was difficult enough to convince him he was wrong or mistaken even when hard data was available to refute his claims.

I'm certainly no theologian, amateur or otherwise, and have little knowledge of Scripture, but I'd have to say that though he may well humble himself before God, he holds himself high above other men, even if it isn't consciously.

Welcome to TWeb.

I was sorry to read how he was so troublesome with tech support. I'm not a techie, but I've had my share of trying to help people who think they know 'puters even though they've been asking for my help.

Again, welcome!

[OldManZangetsu]

he may well humble himself before God

Definitely not if he thinks he paid the price for his sins all on his own.

he holds himself high above other men, even if it isn't consciously.

Although he's shown himself to be a nut, I still find this hard to grasp. I mean, considering how much he's bashed churches and their leadership for acting snidely, I just can't understand why he would do the same. But I dunno... it has been two years, maybe he finally caught on.

Welcome to TWeb

[jpholding]

Ugh....lots goin' on here, more than I thought. Nathaniel, anything you want me to chomp on next, specifically, that no one else has hit on?

[NathanielS]

Get Free From Churchianity

Keep seeking the Lord and you will see,
You cannot stay in churchianity
“Love one another, as I have loved you”,
This cannot happen in a pew

It’s everyday through thick and thin,
Only then will the world see we belong to Him

Come out of religion, and then you will see,
The web that ensnared you - I know it ensnared me
As I sought to know Jesus in a deeper way,
He showed me in religion I could not stay

Meetings on Sundays and Wednesday nights too,
Board meeting Thursday, God where are You?

In religion you learn how to be a good christian,
What traditions to follow, and who has the best doctrine
Predestination, atonement, and propitiation
Oh Lord Jesus, thank you for delivering me from that situation!

You who can hear, don’t tarry any longer
For the snare in which you are tangled, only gets stronger
Run to the one who will set you free,
Forsake all the foolishness of churchianity

Could someone please respond to the 'doctrine' supported by this poem: namely that Christians get away from churches. Also, what is someone's response to, as the poet says, "As I sought to know Jesus in a deeper way, He showed me in religion I could not stay"? They are claiming that Jesus revealed this to them. By doing that, it takes their claim outside the realm of provable/falsifiable. Do we chalk it up to the person is crazy or that demons are influencing them (the Bible warns of false prophets and even "false Jesus"es)? On the other hand, I don't want to be potentially blaspheming Jesus or the Holy Spirit by ascribing Their actions to the demonic.

You can see more of these claims of being led by Jesus in the two testimonies on the site:
http://jesusfamilies.org/preflection..._testimony.htm
http://jesusfamilies.org/preflection..._testimony.htm

Lastly, I noticed, when looking through google for information about Mr. Spiess, I found the following about a home they are trying to sell: http://www.forsalebyowner.com/listing/4A1EF

Am I the only who sees something strange about this whole thing?

[DesertBerean]

Interesting. There is a big difference between "churchianity" (playing church) and "Christianity" (being like Christ). He's mixing it all up in there.

There is no more revelation in the strictest sense, but there continues to be illumination in each true believer's life. In other words there will be a better understanding of him. "He showed me in religion I could not stay" by itself could mean that in reading the Gospel one understands there is no salvation in religion, but that, I'm afraid, is not what this writer means.

Is he crazy? Nah. I think he's very angry.

[NathanielS]

How do you respond when someone makes that kind of claim though? After all, they can point to Bible verses to back them up.

Also, in terms of 'illumination' versus 'revelation', how does one deal with the issue of 'callings' then? For instance, someone believes the Lord is calling them into ministry, teaching or even a secular career.

I think he's very angry.

He seems to alternate between anger and joy/gladness, as though he has found the truth? Why do you think he's so angry (I know we cannot judge a person's heart)? I mean, at some points, it does seem like he saw hippocracy in the churches he was in. Of course, we have only heard his and his wife's (admittedly biased) account of things.