Behe's new book -The Edge of Evolution: 'The Search for the Limits of Darwinism'

[Von Smith]

I don't see a contradiction there.

Creationism is not purely scientific.

Anti-evolutionists claim to lead a purely scientific movement.

To-may-to, to-mah-to. I don't think that either Miller or Jorge are considering the likes of, say, Hoyle and Wickramsinghe.

One possible resolution of the above would be that anti-evolutionists aren't creationists, and aren't involved in creationism. This does not match other available data, though, since many anti-evolutionists (including Jorge) are creationists. There are even anti-evolution organisations set up to deliberately mask their founders' creationist beliefs.

Luckily there is another possible resolution that does match other available data: that anti-evolutionists make false claims.

Roy

Perish the thought. *grin*

[freethinker]

Hitler most definitely had a hidden agenda and everyone - Germans and other countries alike -- didn't realize it until it was too late.
Jorge

I haven't read Mein Kampf but I know the outlines spelled out in the book..
stage 1: Get rid of the treaty of Versailles and rearm
stage 2: Attack France
stage 3: get rid of Jews and communists.

Adolf could hardly have been more blatant about his agenda. We could blame Chamberlain and Daladier for being fools. But I suspect today's politicians will be regarded as fools by later generations too.

[Roy]

And Barry?

...was lured to CARM by supersport and seems unable to disenmire himself.

Roy

[FreezBee]

...was lured to CARM by supersport and seems unable to disenmire himself.

Barry and CARM

I can't even imagine how that's working out.


- FreezBee

[oxmixmudd]

...was lured to CARM by supersport and seems unable to disenmire himself.

Roy

So that is where he went! Been missing his contribution over here.

Jim

[Viktor Scott]

I also note that you have done little or nothing to support what you have said above this is hardly demolishing his arguments.

You have to remember - as I am sure you (we all) know - in the land of Jorge Fraudnandez, merely asserting something is proof-positive of the statements absolute irrefutability.

That and abandoning threads when he can't post a sufficient number of dodges and insults to annoy his opponants into submission.

[shunyadragon]

One of the best reviews of Behe's book, by Gert Korthof:

Either Design or Common Descent

Korthof lists Behe's contradictory positions with clarity. It is a worthy material to read.

I wish to bring this thread to fore to review it because of apparent renewed interest by lee_merrill. I do not consider there to be much new to address, but nontheless it may be worth a second look.

[magellan004]

Hmmm ... my response below contains not one link to any creationist website. Go figure ...

I'd never had exposure to Ken Miller until this 117-minute video. I perceived a man that is quite full of himself (note how many times he goes out of his way to mention the staff he has, the number of printings his books have, the size of his staff, the position he attained on the best-seller list, on and on and on and on and on). I found myself more than once wanting to reach into the video and say, "Okay, Ken, you're a great man - a 'god'. Now, could you please move on? Thank you!"

On the positive side, Miller is certainly able to captivate the audience with his oratory. While this makes for enjoyable listening, I personally don't place too high a value on this since, e.g., I recall that Adolf Hitler was similarly gifted. IOW, I'm far more interested in the substance of the message than on the delivery and, overall, the substance of Miller's message was appalling.

Setting those personal observations aside, what Miller does is present a highly distorted picture containing numerous half-truths, strawmen, misrepresentations and similar. To an uneducated person it could certainly appear that he's on the ball but to those of us versed in the subject it was actually quite repulsive. Below I'll list just a few notes and brief comments. It'd take a lengthy book to address and refute the vast quantity of crap that Miller flung during that talk.

(1) He says he wants to find a "common ground between God and evolution". Error : He hasn't defined what 'evolution' he's referring to. This leads to a second error : assuming that there is common ground. To wit : I, a YEC, believe that evolution is a fact.

However, rest assured and bet the farm on it, the 'evolution' of Naturalism is NOT the same evolution that is a scientific fact.

(2) At about 5:26 he equates 'anti-science' with 'anti-evolution' (and, clearly, he equates those creationists that oppose evolution with opposing science). Plain and simply, this is a complete misrepresentation and a falsehood.

(3) At about 6:40 he says that "anti-evolutionists claim to lead a purely scientific movement". Yes, we do and we are, as long as 'evolution' is defined properly. Miller never presents the entire and truthful version of this.

(4) At about 8:00 he asks why only evolution is "under attack"? Why not chemistry?

Either the man is totally ignorant of what he's talking about or else he's deliberately presenting a highly distorted image of what's going on here. Personally, and after viewing his talk, I'm betting that it's both.

(5) At about 8:40 he displays some pictures from the AiG website to show that creationists / YECs say that "evolution is the source of pornography, homosexuality, etc." Anyone even half-way versed in the subject knows that this isn't true at all. Miller is once again engaging in misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, etc.

(6) At about the 14:00 mark, Miller mentions the six parents that "noted that the anti-evolution stickers were an attempt to promote a religious world view". Miller saw this as justification for the lawsuit that these parents slapped on the school board / county.

I nearly fell off my chair on that one. Is Miller dense enough to NOT realize that the way evolution is presented in most textbooks PROMOTES A RELIGIOUS WORLD VIEW, namely, materialistic Naturalism? I find it hard to believe that he or anyone else could be that dense.

Bluntly, Miller is too stupid, or too ignorant or he's deliberately being less than forthright (a fancy word for 'lying'). When our kids aren't educated in these things, we haven't taken religion out of our schools, we've given the religion of secular Naturalism a monopoly over our children. Geesh!!!

Anyway, that's just a few notes / comments. I'm not going to waste any more time on the swill that Miller bathed his audience with.

Jorge

I'm not sure I could suffer over an hour of this man Miller,but from what you say - the video (or at least the first part ) is a general rant and doesn't address what Behe is saying.

I have noticed that some evolutionists think 'rant' = refutation.

Regards,
Magellan

[Jorge]

I'm not sure I could suffer over an hour of this man Miller,but from what you say - the video (or at least the first part ) is a general rant and doesn't address what Behe is saying.

I have noticed that some evolutionists think 'rant' = refutation.

Regards,
Magellan

**********************************************************************

Coming at you from sunny, but windy, Ft. Myers, Florida (until tomorrow).

Please, don't get me started on K. Miller. If justice were served, he and
Eugenie Scott would be tar-n-fathered on the same night and then tied
to the end of a fishing line to be used as bait.

Oh well, enough dreaming, the reality is that such people are deified as
"great scientists / promoters of science", are given NAS awards and so
on. I wonder if Miller is angry / jealous that Scott got NAS's highest award
yet he hasn't (?). Perhaps they'll have a big fight over it and be jailed for
public disorderly conduct (?). Dang blast it ... I'm dreaming again!

Jorge

[Faid]

**********************************************************************

Coming at you from sunny, but windy, Ft. Myers, Florida (until tomorrow).

Please, don't get me started on K. Miller. If justice were served, he and
Eugenie Scott would be tar-n-fathered on the same night and then tied
to the end of a fishing line to be used as bait.

Oh well, enough dreaming, the reality is that such people are deified as
"great scientists / promoters of science", are given NAS awards and so
on. I wonder if Miller is angry / jealous that Scott got NAS's highest award
yet he hasn't (?). Perhaps they'll have a big fight over it and be jailed for
public disorderly conduct (?). Dang blast it ... I'm dreaming again!

Jorge

Jorge, you don't really mean it about the tar and feathers, right? It's just an expression, right?

[Jorge]

Jorge, you don't really mean it about the tar and feathers, right? It's just an expression, right?

*********************************************************************************

Tying them to a stake and lighting the firewood beneath them is 'just an expression'.

Tar-n-feathering them is something that, in a world of justice, should happen.
I'd even be willing to supply the tar and feathers.

You do know that tar and feathers come off with a good scrubbing, right?
Just ask Tiggy.

While we're at it, a bar of soap in the mouth of each of them would also be in order.

Tar, one (1) barrel : $50.00
Chicken feathers, two (2) pounds : $10.00
Two (2) large bars of soap : $5.00
Lesson taught to those scoundrels : PRICELESS!!!

Jorge

[rogue06]

**********************************************************************

Coming at you from sunny, but windy, Ft. Myers, Florida (until tomorrow).

Please, don't get me started on K. Miller. If justice were served, he and
Eugenie Scott would be tar-n-fathered on the same night and then tied
to the end of a fishing line to be used as bait.

Oh well, enough dreaming, the reality is that such people are deified as
"great scientists / promoters of science", are given NAS awards and so
on. I wonder if Miller is angry / jealous that Scott got NAS's highest award
yet he hasn't (?). Perhaps they'll have a big fight over it and be jailed for
public disorderly conduct (?). Dang blast it ... I'm dreaming again!

Jorge

*********************************************************************************

Tying them to a stake and lighting the firewood beneath them is 'just an expression'.

Yes Jorge, we’ve seen your tirades about Miller and Scott more than once, such as your scintillating review of an article by Miller:

Another lie from Miller...

Another lie from Miller...

More lies from Miller. The man should be tar-and-feathered and then stripped of any credentials that he holds.

And your affections for Eugenie Scott are equally clear, especially your “joke” about burning her alive*:

Witches (like Eugenie Scott) and her followers will likely be in a 'bonfire' soon enough.

She'd look fantastic tied to a stake and surrounded by a large pile of firewood.
Why didn't you get a picture of her in that pose? I would've paid good money for a reprint.

As long as I'm not the 'witch' --- whom should definitely be burned --- I can live with that.

This is why they deserve jail ... witches and her followers definitely ought to be in jail.

Ever notice how at the end of all Fourth of July celebrations there's a fireworks display?

Well, it's the same principle --- ya got'ta end this kind'a stuff watching a witch go up in smoke.

I'm so sorry that no one else here wants to get into the festive mood. Sniff ...

Also, here I said tar-n-feather, NOT "jail and burn".

"Jail and burn" is for people like Eugenie Scott, Kenneth Miller, et al.

Finally, I guess sarcasm can't be used around people like you, can it.

Jorge “joking” again

Just found out ...
The ol' witch (Eugenie Scott) and her organization (NCSE) has now "taken the extraordinary and unprecedented step of building a website devoted solely to discrediting" [the film EXPELLED]...
The misrepresentations and lies are simply atrocious! EXPELLED is about intellectual freedom and these
filthy lying specimens refer to it as, and I quote, "an anti-evolution, anti-science film". I say burn them at the stake!

I'd tie them all to a stake (next to Eugenie Scott) and burn them!
Errr ... I'd bet that would leave a carbon footprint!

The last was on a subject not even remotely linked to evolution or Scott but illustrates Jorge’s infatuation.

And to get an idea of why Jorge feels this way and how serious he is:

In my book, Scott is far more deadly than [serial killer Ted] Bundy
ever was. What I mean is, Bundy killed around 35 people. How many people
has Scott and her henchmen "killed" with their poison? Hundreds of thousands?
Millions? Tens of millions?

* A couple of these are from a thread Jorge started called “If I had the authority, I’d toss them in jail.” The title speaks for itself.

[Faid]

*********************************************************************************

Tying them to a stake and lighting the firewood beneath them is 'just an expression'.

Tar-n-feathering them is something that, in a world of justice, should happen.
I'd even be willing to supply the tar and feathers.

You do know that tar and feathers come off with a good scrubbing, right?
Just ask Tiggy.

While we're at it, a bar of soap in the mouth of each of them would also be in order.

Tar, one (1) barrel : $50.00
Chicken feathers, two (2) pounds : $10.00
Two (2) large bars of soap : $5.00
Lesson taught to those scoundrels : PRICELESS!!!

Jorge

Jorge, you don't know much about tarring and feathering, right? At least, I hope that's the case.

[The Moonshield]

A couple of these are from a thread Jorge started called “If I had the authority, I’d toss them in jail.” The title speaks for itself.

A disturbing number of YEC's/IDists have said similar things.

Makes you wonder how these guys manage to say things like "evolutionists want to suppress dissent and 'expel' all who disagree with them!" without the massive black hole of their own hypocrisy making them implode into themselves.

[Faid]

Yes Jorge, we’ve seen your tirades about Miller and Scott more than once, such as your scintillating review of an article by Miller:



And your affections for Eugenie Scott are equally clear, especially your “joke” about burning her alive*:


Jorge “joking” again



The last was on a subject not even remotely linked to evolution or Scott but illustrates Jorge’s infatuation.

And to get an idea of why Jorge feels this way and how serious he is:






* A couple of these are from a thread Jorge started called “If I had the authority, I’d toss them in jail.” The title speaks for itself.

Well, it's a good thing that people like jorge don't have the authority, and they're never going to get it as long as civilized societies hold.