Originally posted by Ormly

Matthew 9:22 (NASB-U)
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matthew 9:29 (NASB-U)
Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matthew 15:28 (NASB-U)
Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Mark 5:34 (NASB-U)
And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."




The "your faith" spoken of here is unto salvation, not rebirth/regeneration.

Faith is called "your" in these passages due to imputation of faith from God to the sinner. Faith becomes ~ours~ through the gift of the faithfulness of Christ.

And regeneration is salvation.

Two essentials for salvation:

1. The power and work of the Holy Spirit to resurrect us from being dead in sins to new life in Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-5)

2. The gift of faith to believe and comprehend the things of God. (John 3:3)

upon re-birth we are given the Faith of Christ inasmuch as we receive Christ, His life, into us. This is the "Salvation" Paul speaks of when he says: "Work it out".

I agree with this. And I believe there is no choice not to receive the gift of life and faith, for the power of God's grace is irresistible.

Jesus said, "Wait, I will give Him and He will teach/show you". It can only be when the life of Christ within us is in agreement with will of the Father, that we achieve. That's the process of becoming a begotten son. That's why Paul said: "Don't quench the Spirit". The Faith of Christ=the Mind of God.

Amen.

Nang

Originally posted by Nang

Faith is called "your" in these passages due to imputation of faith from God to the sinner. Faith becomes ~ours~ through the gift of the faithfulness of Christ.

Scripture please and not conjectured nonsense.

And regeneration is salvation

Nope. It's the born again experience.

Two essentials for salvation:

1. The power and work of the Holy Spirit to resurrect us from being dead in sins to new life in Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-5)

2. The gift of faith to believe and comprehend the things of God. (John 3:3)

Nope. Faith in God testified of by ones life.

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

There, how's that? That's salvation in anyone"s book, correct or no?

I agree with this. And I believe there is no choice not to receive the gift of life and faith, for the power of God's grace is irresistible.

Nope. Many are called but chosen. Why? Because most resist God and continue in "self mode" after their supposed salvation. You need a course in the beattitudes.

Hebrews 2:3 (KJV)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

If God succours and nourishes those who are His, what does he mean neglect if not referring in some way to resisting Him, Hmmm? And these, the born again?

Its a few days since the last post but I figure I might as well take a stab at the issue.

I do believe all men can be saved, but I also believe that regeneration precedes faith logistically (not temporally). The semantics of that I will briefly go into later, but let me first try to establish regeneration preceding faith.

First, let me define regeneration as being born again. In such, we are made partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). In other words, with regeneration, we are given an imparted (NOT imputed) principle of righteousness. Regeneration is also the granting of our initial repentance. I am sure that is a definition some may argue with.

Also, I am saying faith is summed up by full trust in Him and the acceptance as Christ as Lord instead of a mere intellectual assent.

John 3:20-21:

For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

In these verses, we see that coming to Christ (the Light) would be performed only by the person who practices the truth. Those who do evil would not come to Christ.

If man can not be brought to salvation by his works, these verses can not be saying by doing certain number of good or evil deeds one becomes capable of coming to Christ.

Rather, if a man was born again, he would have a imparted righteousness which would cause the man to practice the truth. Then at that same time, the man would also come to Christ. Thus, at the very least, regeneration and faith are seen to happn at the same time temporally. However, the text gives a further clue as to what if first logistically. Jesus attributes coming or avoiding the Light to their works.

Thus assuming that there is an imparted righteousness given at regeneration, this verse would be the basis for regeneration before faith. However, no doctrine should be established upon one Scripture if at all possible. So lets look at verses elsewhere in John.

John 6:44-45:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, "AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

This verse right here states that without God's drawing, we can not come to Christ. However, the next verse adds some further light to the meaning. WE come to Christ when we are taught by the Father. Now this verse in itself really doesn't speak of regeneration per se, but it would not be a far strech to associate this teaching coming from the Holy Spirit with or at regeneration. But nevertheless, we must be taught by the Father before we come to Christ.

John 8:42-47:

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Here Jesus says if God were our Father they would have loved Him. However, they were instead of the devil and because of that they did not believe Him. Thus from these verses we see that loving Him and believing Him is conditioned upon God being our Father. And God being our Father could very well speaking of being born of God, or more specifically of the Holy Spirit, which is regeneration. Thus if "God being our Father" does indeed refer to being born again, it would definately show that love of Christ and belief of Him would be conditioned upon regeneration.

However, I don't think this is the only place where the Scripture speak of this, but I believe Paul implies regeneration before faith also.

1 Corinthians 12:3:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Fairly self explanatory.

Galatians 5:22-23:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

The Greek word transalted as faithfulness there is the same Greek word that is generally translated as faith, pistis, so there is no change in the wording in reality. One would have to propose that pistis here refers to something different other than saving faith, which is could very well be, but I personally doubt it.

2 Timothy 2:25b:

if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth

If God granted men our repentance (our desire to turn against our sins) if regneration, then we recognize that knowledge (in the Greek epignosis or percise knowledge) of the truth comes as a result of repentance. Now the question would come up as to what is "knowledge of the truth." I think it refers to the whole Christian truth, which includes Christ.

John 16:8-9:

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

We see the Holy Spirit convicting men that do not beleive in Christ not of the truth of Christ as Savior and God, but rather about sin. Therefore a very reachable conclusion is that Holy Spirit convicts us of sin so that we would repent, resulting in our regeneration and subsequent faith.

Other verses that may support regeneration before faith, but ones that I am not really sure it does teach it are John 6:29, Acts 19:4 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Of course all the verses I gave are not absolute proofs beyond question. Each verse by itself is not conclusive, but I believe when you begin to see them all together, they would definately show the theme of regeneration before faith.

Now as for a reconciling of salvation being for all men yet regeneration before faith, I have spoken of the answer within this post already. By repentance from sin (which I believe every man is enabled to perform through an prevenient enabling grace of God) in conjunction with knowledge of God, men are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, thus unquestionably leading them to faith in Christ. If they are born again and have heard or do hear the Gospel, they will without question come to faith in Christ.

I agree with nang that regeneration is salvation. I also believe that regeneration not only begets but actually equates to illumination, love, faith and all things good and true.

Aquinas, who appears to have fallen prey to what I see as the single greatest error about the spiritual birth in this debate--that one is wholly and completely regenerated in a single event--nonetheless noted in the Summa, "...faith must needs be from God. For the things which are of faith surpass human reason, and hence they do not come to man's knowledge, unless God reveal them." (On The Cause of Faith, Q.6, a1)

and....."[the Pelagian belief that the beginning of faith is of man's choice]is false, for since, by assenting to what belongs to faith, man is raised above his nature, this must needs come to him from some supernatural principle moving him inwardly; and this is God." (Q.6, a1)

and..."...the rational creature is purified by means of a contrary movement, namely, by tending to what which is above it, viz, God."

Regeneration is everything. If we could take an ethereal microscope and peer into the depths of existence, I believe we'd see that 1) all that exists is, at base level, information of one sort or another, and, 2) all information (except God and possibly the angels) exists in a fragmented state of both true or false. Simply put, true=perfection, false=imperfection. The properties true and false in existence can be seen in a variety of prescriptive/religious contexts. It defines good and evil, life and death, light and darkness, etc. and all that arise from them: sin and righteousness, unity and chaos, understanding and incomprehension, etc.

I think my Calvinist brethren have the logical upper hand in noting that regeneration necessarily preceeds and is the basis for faith, while my Arminian brethren, properly affirming that choice plays a role in faith, end placing it's relevance in the wrong place. As the world's only Rational Esotericist, I see regeneration as the fragmentary and progressive destruction of false data in human spirit and its "rebirth" into a "true" state, and this is essentially salvation because it produces in one all those things necessary to beleive. To the extent spirit is true, mind is causally also true and in union with God, who is Truth.

In other words, regeneration is a death and rebirth. Jesus alluded to this esoterically in parables (wheat and tares, Mat 13) and other of His teachings (sheep and goats of Mat 25; branches in the vine, some cleansed or pruned and others thrown into the fire in Jn 15; body parts some cut off and discarded, Mat 18:7-9, etc.) Jesus noted in John 12:24, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Once illuminated (regenerated to some measure of moral capacity), the created intellect is invited to participate in his or her salvation by exercising the minute power of choice--which is almost always only an assent to revealed truth (distinct from an ability to actually comply with or embrace this truth. Choice arises dimly and weakly from the admixture of true/false (or good/evil, light/darkness, spirit/flesh) the mind is presented from the fragmental and partially-regenerate spirit. I believe this view alone satisfies the logical difficulties inherent in an assumption of a wholly regenerate spirit.

I agree with lifesharer that regeneration is a literal rebirth of the spirit from death to life (true to false), but doctrine runs into epistemological difficulties it cannot overcome when we try to apply spiritual birth as an instant, wholly performed event.

Even Aquinas noted this difficulty in the Summa [without ever directly saying so], doubtless unaware that he was arguing for progressive regeneration when he wrote, "He who receives faith from God....is healed from unbelief, not entirely....but in part, namely, in that he ceases from committing such and such a sin. Thus it happens frequently that a man desists from one act of sin, through the instigation of his own malice. In in this way sometimes it is granted a man to believe, and yet he is not granted the gift of charity; so, too, the gift of prophecy, or the like, is given to some without charity."

Aquinas observed here, whether knowingly or not, the inherent difficulty in proclaiming regeneration complete: faith, attraction to sin, behaviors, etc. remain yet fragmentary in the individual. Only the rationally esoteric view is able to dispell these difficulties.

the " veil was done away with In Christ " through our regenerated spirit so that the Holy Spirit can guide us into all truth even with a mere tranlsation . if we all had to speak and read greek and hebreww to Know God and His word the Holy Spirit came in vain.

Regeneration can in NO way BE salvation. these are two entirely different concepts and words with entirely different defintions and effects. Regeneration is tied to a rebirth of your spirit: see Ezekiel 11: 19 John 3:6, Jeremiah 31: 31-34 Ez. 36:24-28 and 2Peter 1:3. amongst dozens of other verses. In Deut. 30:6 we see that this literal rebirth of our spirit is likened unto circumcision, of the heart, and this corresponds directly to and without any ambiguity to Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14 and Ro. 6: 1-11 which reveals plainly that GOD chose to regenerate us at the time of Water baptism and NOT at the moment of salvation. This explains why Jesus used accuratly: "KINGDOM" and NOt heaven or salvation in HIS teaching about spirit rebirth (John 3:6 is the very defintion of being: born again ("from above" is a better rendering). Its NOT about salvation but spiritual ability and maturity and being led By the Spirit (John 3:8. Thus we see that since regeneration is tied directly to water baptism, and that is a "works" we DO, it cannot be added to grace as essential to have "mere" salvation. Neither the water nor the ritual having any power, but the HS gives birth to our spirit at that time as a fullfillment of the OT type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea and being set free from bondage to egypt, the flesh and sin in type. See again Ezekiel 36: 25. Where else is sprinkle spoken of ? Heb 10: 22 as a evidence that our spirit and the communion with the Hs is fully restored as spoken in about in deut 30: 6 and 1Peter 3: 21 creating in us a "good Conscience". This "divine NATURE" being that perfect human spirit that God divinly created in Adam and was restored In Jesus and then given to us as the "spirit of Life in Christ Jesus".
lifesharer

The only problem is in your understanding my friend, our spirit is instantly and completely rebirthed:
Titus 3:5, the germ of regeneration, divides the work of the HS into regeneration proper AND into soul sanctification proper ("renewing" as in the renewing of your mind). one is an instant and complete work the second a process.
Simply grasping that regeneration is typed By Israel passing through the red sea where bondage to the old man /NATURE is broken as the soldiers of egypt were distroyed, and "Renewing", is typed By Israel in the wilderness (where sin, rebellion and unbelief was worked out of them) will help you understand what this is about. God alludes to this dual state in Ro. chapter 7 and in the process of soul renewing in many verses not least of which is the " word of God that sharp two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and spirit by the washing of the water of the word" causing us to walk in spiritual mindedness rather than in mere soul and flesh( carnal life/ mindedness) alone. Putting On the "mind of Christ" is NOT about a fragmented partial regeneration but speaks to spiritual growth: up to "the perfect man of the measure and stature of Christ" Ephesisn 4: 11-16, to spiritual maturity, to the KINGDOM life in the "promise land" , the type for spiritual maturity and kingdom life.
My friend has improperly divided the word here in Titus 3:5 confusing spirit rebirth with soul sanctification.(renewing of your mind) Just because you are a spiritual babe in Christ does NOT mean your spirit is NOT totaly restored. It is after all merely a organ akin to eye or ear and NOT a place where your personality or person it self resides , that is the soul alone. your spirit has NO self awareness like a soul does.
Your " rational ( natural man ) CANNOT rightly divide the word of God NOR know HIM and his " things ( 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) since they are spiritualy discerned. Our Faith is NOt some blind belief but is founded in a sure KNOWledge of God as an intmate " friend" (face to face) thus have Faith IN HIM.Thus rgeneration and its restoration of face to face intimate communion is the foundation of the building blocks of faith and obediance and welding the power and authority of God and KNOWing his perfect will:The very Kingdom and soveriegnty of God manifested! Regeneration allows us to have illumination and other EFFECTS of it not to beconfused with it itself. there are all the gifts of the Spirit , all the fruit of the Spirit and all the ministries and callings squarely founded on our first being regenerated and then learning to walk in it as mature spiritual men. The Holy Spirit reveals to our spirit the "Things of God " which includes righteous judgment / spiritual discernment and other gifts like tongues and prophecy as the HOLY SPIRIT choosesto reveal them through usand NOT as functions inherant IN our spirit ( hence they are GIFTS not abilities).
a proper understanding of and experience in regeneration is essential to all christian yet many do NOT walk in it and remain carnal or never learn of this concept. regeneration is like the gas you put in your new car( salvation ) you may HAVE salvation , but without regeneration its just a big storage unit lolol.

Originally posted by Bernie

I agree with nang that regeneration is salvation. I also believe that regeneration not only begets but actually equates to illumination, love, faith and all things good and true.

Aquinas, who appears to have fallen prey to what I see as the single greatest error about the spiritual birth in this debate--that one is wholly and completely regenerated in a single event--nonetheless noted in the Summa, "...faith must needs be from God. For the things which are of faith surpass human reason, and hence they do not come to man's knowledge, unless God reveal them." (On The Cause of Faith, Q.6, a1)

Never mind Pelegian. He doesn't enter into this, one wit.

Aquinas, if indeed your quote from him is all he understood, falls shorts. He does not make good distinctions in this. For instance: Does one need faith for the Blood of Jesus Christ to be shed for him? After all it is the Blood of Christ that saves, is it not? Where is faith needed for that? Who is saved by the Blood? Who is also damned by it and why would they damned? What does any of that have to do with regeneration??

Now it's your turn to make proper distinctions.

Orm

Thus we see that since regeneration is tied directly to water baptism, and that is a "works" we DO, it cannot be added to grace as essential to have "mere" salvation. Neither the water nor the ritual having any power, but the HS gives birth to our spirit at that time as a fullfillment of the OT type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea and being set free from bondage to egypt, the flesh and sin in type. See again Ezekiel 36: 25. Where else is sprinkle spoken of ? Heb 10: 22 as a evidence that our spirit and the communion with the Hs is fully restored as spoken in about in deut 30: 6 and 1Peter 3: 21 creating in us a "good Conscience". This "divine NATURE" being that perfect human spirit that God divinly created in Adam and was restored In Jesus and then given to us as the "spirit of Life in Christ Jesus".
lifesharer

Good post, Lifesharer. May I offer a slight adjustment in fear and trembling.

Water baptism is an outward declaration of an inward happening. The occasion of the Red sea, a "type", happened after the revelation of God to the Israelites, after He called them out of Eqypt.

Something to remember: God didn't baptise them for them to remain in or go back to "Egypt" nor are we, when baptised in water, to remain in "self" or go back to it. "He who puts his hand to the plow and looks back ......" [finish it] In this regard alone, water baptism has strong significance. One should be more than "saved" by the Blood before he enters the water.

Have had little time recently, will try to answer as time permits, though I may fall too far behind to be of much affect...this is a topic that can quickly branch out to cover a lot of territory.

Lifesharer:

"Regeneration can in NO way BE salvation. these are two entirely different concepts and words with entirely different defintions and effects.

It's best, when possible, to refrain from making categorical statements that have not been properly considered from all possible points of view or frames of reference. In fact, regeneration can be and is salvation. Not only this, it seems an absurd retreat into base legalism to not see the correlation between the two and argue as if they had no relationship.

Ormly:

"Never mind Pelegian. He doesn't enter into this, one wit."

And if you reread my post you'll see that I did not assert that he did; on the other hand, I beleive the pelagian error does, although this was not at all the point of any of my post.

"Aquinas....falls shorts. He does not make good distinctions in this. For instance: Does one need faith for the Blood of Jesus Christ to be shed for him?"

I thought he was quite clear. In simplest terms, Aquinas affirms that movement from God precedes faith, though he goes on in his theology to dim this all-important truth by endowing the will with more power and authority than I believe is prudent.

"After all it is the Blood of Christ that saves, is it not?"

Yes.

"Who is saved by the Blood?"

All.

"Who is also damned by it and why would they damned?"

The same all are damned. It appears from your wording that you're asking me if the blood of Christ damns, and I have to assume, since this makes no sense from an orthodox theological perspective, that I must not understand your question correctly. I would assume that you would agree that one's own sins "damn" them, not Jesus' blood....??

What does any of that have to do with regeneration??

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ"
(Eph 2:1-5 NASB)

Regeneration is the 'first movement' from God which produces in the created intellect some ability and propensity for moral choice, affirming Jn 1:9: "There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." From this point, the contradistinction bewteen "flesh" and "spirit" made by Jesus, Peter and Paul pertain to man's fragmented ability on some minor level to make moral choices for either spirit [good] or flesh [evil]. The dogmatic literal reading used by some of "flesh" as referring
to the material body is unsupportable on biblical and epistemological grounds.

From this point of initial partial regeneration, all further movement toward God is accomplished in ongoing regeneration, which is the basis of all illumination.

The logic is simple and sound: man, spirit and body, is an informational structure, one's information [being] exsting in a fragmented state of both true (good) and false (evil). Regeneration, in this context, is the destruction of the property of falsity (the 'death' of one's spiritual death) and its replacement of this quality with the quality or attribute of truth, or life. Regeneration is thus an ongoing process culminating in more or less or one's spirit being increasingly transformed from a state of falsity to truth, or death to life. We usually call this sanctification.

Regeneration is essentially salvation, sanctification, renewal, etc. The Bible is a book of nothing but progressive and fragmental application of regeneration from death to life to all humanity.

Do you honestly fail to see the connection between salvation and regeneration?

I am often amazed when people quote just enough of someone elses full statement to make it easy to misunderstand and misrepresent them. That's crafty, dishonest, and carnal. What YOU failed to do was stop pontificating long enough to properly and scripturaly define these independant concepts. Regeneration: from the greek: paliggenesia:... means: spiritual rebirth, its two root words speak of a return to a former (ancient) NATURE. Jesus the foremost authority defined it as the LITERAL rebirth of our human spirit, BY the Holy Spirit. Thus restoring it to how God originaly created it in Adam to function, before he sinned and his spirit died (was cut off from God). There is absolutly NO connotation in the word paliggenesia, of the concept of "salvation". NOR is thier in Jesus' teaching obout regeneration (being born from above) in John 3: 3-12, of the concept of "salvation", but ONLY the "KINGDOM of God": which is in heaven, and can be in you, or in the earth.
Salvation is defined as the translation of the believer from the kingdom (jurisidiction) of darkness (which is hell and Lucifer's home) to the Kingdom of Light (which is heaven and Gods home). OR defined as: the privelidge of spending eternity with GOD in HEAVEN by grace through faith and NOT our works of any kind. This has NO connotation of "spirit rebirth" (John 3:6) in the defintion of "salvation". And the type of salvation proper which is Israel leaving egypt, ENDS where the regeneration type begins which is where Israel is set free from the bondage to Egypt as the type for this worlds ways and lusts of the flesh and which are Broken by God closing the red sea over egypts soldiers. SEE: Col. 2: 11-14, Ro. 6: 1-11 and Ro. 7:6. The types are clear and follow one after the other, why is it that you do not see it?
I find it utterly facinating how twisted and confused some men are by thier religious dogmas when scriptures are clear and obvious. It is CLEAR that "circumcision of the heart, in the (s)pirit", (not Spirit), Ro. 2: 28-29, is another name for spirit rebirth/ regeneration. See: Deut. 30: 6 Ezekiel 36: 25-28 specificaly verse 25-26 ezekial 11: 19 and jeremiah 31:31-34 and speaks of this "new covenant" (Heb. 8:9-12). it is connected to other names for spirit rebirth such as: "Quickened" Col 2:13 + (see Eph. 2: 1) and Ro. 6: 4: "newness of life" and "newness of spirit" in Ro. 7:6, and Ro. 8: 1-17 : "the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" wherein is the only instance of the "Christ spirit" (vs.9) and lacks the definite article "The" before either word; which would denote THE Holy Spirit. This "pneuma Theou" being a singular instance and arrangement of these words, is the new creature or new creation and is spoken of as :"Christ in you" being the very literal: perfect human spirit of Jesus as "very man" placed in you to replace your old corrupted and ruined human spirit at regeneration. (See E.W. Bullingers Book : numbers in scriptures page 86), as spoken about in 1 Peter 1: 11, 2:5 ("lively stones" compare to Ezekiel 11: 19), 3:4 3:21 , 1 John 3:1-10 and 3:24, Hebrews 8: 9-12 and Phil 3:3, and many other verses and names for this, which all speak of this simple concept of spirit rebirth. Furthermore: Col. 2: 11-14 ties DIRECTLT AND CLEARLY to the moment of water baptism Col. 2: 11-12, as ro. 6:1-11 (newness of life) does as well! And unless you can prove that Deut. 30:6 and the name: "circumcision of the heart, in the spirit", and ALL these verses DO NOT speak of regeneration of our spirit (spirit rebirth), being born from above,..... you have NO right to deny that GOD Chose to regenerate us at the time OF water baptism. And again I say the name " circumcision of the heart (inner man) in the spirit (NOT capitalized) is another name for regeneration which Col.2: 11-14 ties clearly to water baptism. NOT that water has any power, ... or the ritual, but this is where GOD CHOSE to regenerate us by HIS Spirit as a fullfillment of his fore-type in Exodus and many other prophetic places.
Salvation is NOT regeneration BY defintion , and scriptures clearly states when each occures.
NOR, it MUST be said: is regeneration (or water baptism for that matter) essential to HAVE mere salvation, since it is a "works" we DO, and cannot be added to the perfect propitiation of Christ essential to have mere salvation.
I pray God deliver you from fuzzy theology and mens confused doctrines into a clear grasp of the spiritual mechanics and truth involved with regeneration as apposed to salvation. If you write me at: lifesharer@yahoo.com and ask for it, ... I can send you a bible study on this that may clear up for you the question of what regeneration IS and When it occurs, as well as what it's effects are, if this short lesson failed to get past the dogma of mans religion you have been mislead by.

OK, just based on the OP, the scriptures that say ordus salutis...that you believe then are "made alive", "have life", "have eternal life" in that order are: (and I beg forgiveness if others posted these, but I will simply post the list where such is talked about)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

NOTE: We access grace by faith, NOT we access faith by grace.


Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.