As the title says, this is non-debate. I'm just asking a simple question and want the simple answer with no discussion on whether the interpretations presented are in fact accurate or not.

I'm hoping for an answer from DDW or Faramir, but any Preterist who knows the answer is free to answer.

DDW presented something concerning the armies that surrounded Jerusalem prior to its siege and the destruction of the temple. I believe the order of events went like this:
-Armies surrounded Jerusalem
-Armies suddenly left(were called away?)
-Christians, knowing their prophecies, packed up and left
-Their leaving confused the Jews(non-Christian) who believed the Christians(who used to be Jews) would stand with them.
-The Roman armies returned.
-Jerusalem was ransacked and the Temple destroyed.

Now, I remember from the presentation that one of the events(the sudden leaving of the armies) is considered a prophetic sign in Preterist eschatology. The armies leaving was a sign that things were about to get bad, so the Christians should get out of there ASAP.

My question:
What Biblical passage(s) mention this sign(the sudden leaving of the armies surrounding Jerusalem)? I was attempting to tell someone about the Preterist discussion at Twebcon, but when I got to this part I had forgotten to write the verse reference(s) down. It would really help me if I had the verse reference(s). Thank you.

Originally posted by Little Shepherd

As the title says, this is non-debate. I'm just asking a simple question and want the simple answer with no discussion on whether the interpretations presented are in fact accurate or not.

I'm hoping for an answer from DDW or Faramir, but any Preterist who knows the answer is free to answer.

DDW presented something concerning the armies that surrounded Jerusalem prior to its siege and the destruction of the temple. I believe the order of events went like this:
-Armies surrounded Jerusalem
-Armies suddenly left(were called away?)
-Christians, knowing their prophecies, packed up and left
-Their leaving confused the Jews(non-Christian) who believed the Christians(who used to be Jews) would stand with them.
-The Roman armies returned.
-Jerusalem was ransacked and the Temple destroyed.

Now, I remember from the presentation that one of the events(the sudden leaving of the armies) is considered a prophetic sign in Preterist eschatology. The armies leaving was a sign that things were about to get bad, so the Christians should get out of there ASAP.

My question:
What Biblical passage(s) mention this sign(the sudden leaving of the armies surrounding Jerusalem)? I was attempting to tell someone about the Preterist discussion at Twebcon, but when I got to this part I had forgotten to write the verse reference(s) down. It would really help me if I had the verse reference(s). Thank you.

I just read through Revelation tonight. It struck me that chapter 7 could be referring to the pause above. Chapter 6 is the first six seal judgements.

Rev 7:1-3 NASB

¹After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. ² And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, ³ saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

The rest of chapter 7 deals with the sealing of the 144,000 and events in heaven. Chapter 8 begins the trumpet judgements following the breaking of the seventh seal.

Originally posted by Little Shepherd

As the title says, this is non-debate. I'm just asking a simple question and want the simple answer with no discussion on whether the interpretations presented are in fact accurate or not.

I'm hoping for an answer from DDW or Faramir, but any Preterist who knows the answer is free to answer.

DDW presented something concerning the armies that surrounded Jerusalem prior to its siege and the destruction of the temple. I believe the order of events went like this:
-Armies surrounded Jerusalem
-Armies suddenly left(were called away?)
-Christians, knowing their prophecies, packed up and left
-Their leaving confused the Jews(non-Christian) who believed the Christians(who used to be Jews) would stand with them.
-The Roman armies returned.
-Jerusalem was ransacked and the Temple destroyed.

Now, I remember from the presentation that one of the events(the sudden leaving of the armies) is considered a prophetic sign in Preterist eschatology. The armies leaving was a sign that things were about to get bad, so the Christians should get out of there ASAP.

My question:
What Biblical passage(s) mention this sign(the sudden leaving of the armies surrounding Jerusalem)? I was attempting to tell someone about the Preterist discussion at Twebcon, but when I got to this part I had forgotten to write the verse reference(s) down. It would really help me if I had the verse reference(s). Thank you.

The verses used (or the ones I use) for this event are Luke 21:20-21:

ESV

20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

Now the first part is clear...."when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies." But your question (if I understand it correctly) is where is the "sudden leaving" of the armies mentioned as a "sign".

To my knowledge the army leaving is not explicitly stated anywhere, but (IMHO) it is implied by the latter part verse 21. If the city is surrounded by armies, how can the people "get out" or why would people want to 'get in'.

Plus I would not call the armies leaving a "sign" so much as the armies appearing. The armies leaving gives those who heed the sign the opportunity to follow the warning Jesus gave.

Hope this helps.

Edit to add:

Not only is the army leaving implied by Jesus instructions to flee (something not possible if the city is surrounded), but also by His words "...desolation has come near." Note that the army surrounding the city is NOT the brininger of the desolation but a sign that it is near. Saying this of an army that was going to stay and 'finish the job' of desolation is (again IMHO) awkward at best.

Originally posted by Faramir

The verses used (or the ones I use) for this event are Luke 21:20-21:

ESV

20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,

Now the first part is clear...."when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies." But your question (if I understand it correctly) is where is the "sudden leaving" of the armies mentioned as a "sign".

To my knowledge the army leaving is not explicitly stated anywhere, but (IMHO) it is implied by the latter part verse 21. If the city is surrounded by armies, how can the people "get out" or why would people want to 'get in'.

Plus I would not call the armies leaving a "sign" so much as the armies appearing. The armies leaving gives those who heed the sign the opportunity to follow the warning Jesus gave.

Hope this helps.

Edit to add:

Not only is the army leaving implied by Jesus instructions to flee (something not possible if the city is surrounded), but also by His words "...desolation has come near." Note that the army surrounding the city is NOT the brininger of the desolation but a sign that it is near. Saying this of an army that was going to stay and 'finish the job' of desolation is (again IMHO) awkward at best.

I believe it would be fair to say that Preterists are not the only ones who see things this way. My view of prophecy would be described as premillennial historicist, but I would agree completely with everything Faramir says in his post above.

David

Oh, okay. Thanks guys! That helps a ton.

I think Farimir already said the 'lull' is not in the Scriptures. I do have an account of Jerusalem being surrounded and then without reasonable explanation, the armies temporarily withdrew. I was hoping some one else had it to post sinse I havnet been able to locate the quote . When I do I'll post it.

If memory serves it is taken from Josepheus.

Take care

H

Originally posted by Hitch

I think Farimir already said the 'lull' is not in the Scriptures. I do have an account of Jerusalem being surrounded and then without reasonable explanation, the armies temporarily withdrew. I was hoping some one else had it to post sinse I havnet been able to locate the quote . When I do I'll post it.

If memory serves it is taken from Josepheus.

Take care

H

I'm reading Josephus at the moment. I'll post it when I come across it.

There are extensive discussions of the matter at
http://www.wheaton.edu/DistanceLearning/Pella.htm
and
http://www.christeternalchristianchu...tionpaper8.htm
and with quotes from primary sources at
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pella.html

David

Originally posted by David_A_Reed

There are extensive discussions of the matter at
http://www.wheaton.edu/DistanceLearning/Pella.htm
and
http://www.christeternalchristianchu...tionpaper8.htm
and with quotes from primary sources at
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pella.html

David

Thanks for the links.

Yes, David. Thanks for even more awesomeness.

Originally posted by Hitch

I think Farimir already said the 'lull' is not in the Scriptures. I do have an account of Jerusalem being surrounded and then without reasonable explanation, the armies temporarily withdrew. I was hoping some one else had it to post sinse I havnet been able to locate the quote . When I do I'll post it.

If memory serves it is taken from Josepheus.

Take care

H

Here is a mention of a delay which allowed a few to escape.

The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem
Book IV
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT ONE YEAR.
FROM THE SIEGE OF GAMALA TO THE COMING OF TITUS TO BESIEGE JERUSALEM.
CHAPTER 1.

3. Now none of the populace durst not only make a reply, but durst not so much as get upon the wall, for it was all taken up by the robbers, who were also the guard at the gates, in order to prevent any of the rest from going out, in order to propose terms of submission, and from receiving any of the horsemen into the city. But John returned Titus this answer: That for himself he was content to hearken to his proposals, and that he would either persuade or force those that refused them. Yet he said that Titus ought to have such regard to the Jewish law, as to grant them leave to celebrate that day, which was the seventh day of the week, on which it was unlawful not only to remove their arms, but even to treat of peace also; and that even the Romans were not ignorant how the period of the seventh day was among them a cessation from all labors; and that he who should compel them to transgress the law about that day would be equally guilty with those that were compelled to transgress it: and that this delay could be of no disadvantage to him; for why should any body think of doing any thing in the night, unless it was to fly away? which he might prevent by placing his camp round about them; and that they should think it a great point gained, if they might not be obliged to transgress the laws of their country; and that it would be a right thing for him, who designed to grant them peace, without their expectation of such a favor, to preserve the laws of those they saved inviolable. Thus did this man put a trick upon Titus, not so much out of regard to the seventh day as to his own preservation, for he was afraid lest he should be quite deserted if the city should be taken, and had his hopes of life in that night, and in his flight therein. Now this was the work of God, who therefore preserved this John, that he might bring on the destruction of Jerusalem; as also it was his work that Titus was prevailed with by this pretense for a delay, and that he pitched his camp further off the city at Cydessa. This Cydessa was a strong Mediterranean village of the Tyrians, which always hated and made war against the Jews; it had also a great number of inhabitants, and was well fortified, which made it a proper place for such as were enemies to the Jewish nation.

4. Now, in the night time, when John saw that there was no Roman guard about the city, he seized the opportunity directly, and, taking with him not only the armed men that where about him, but a considerable number of those that had little to do, together with their families, he fled to Jerusalem. And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations; for the farther every one of them was come from his own people, the nearer they thought themselves to be to their enemies. They also affrighted themselves with this thought, that those who would carry them into captivity were just at hand, and still turned themselves back at the mere noise they made themselves in this their hasty flight, as if those from whom they fled were just upon them. Many also of them missed their ways, and the earnestness of such as aimed to outgo the rest threw down many of them. And indeed there was a miserable destruction made of the women and children; while some of them took courage to call their husbands and kinsmen back, and to beseech them, with the bitterest lamentations, to stay for them; but John's exhortation, who cried out to them to save themselves, and fly away, prevailed. He said also, that if the Romans should seize upon those whom they left behind, they would be revenged on them for it. So this multitude that run thus away was dispersed abroad, according as each of them was able to run, one faster or slower than another.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s/josephus.htm

[

out of curiosity, are LittleShepherd and OldShepherd related?

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Here is a mention of a delay which allowed a few to escape.

The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem
Book IV
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT ONE YEAR.
FROM THE SIEGE OF GAMALA TO THE COMING OF TITUS TO BESIEGE JERUSALEM.
CHAPTER 1.

3. Now none of the populace durst not only make a reply, but durst not so much as get upon the wall, for it was all taken up by the robbers, who were also the guard at the gates, in order to prevent any of the rest from going out, in order to propose terms of submission, and from receiving any of the horsemen into the city. But John returned Titus this answer: That for himself he was content to hearken to his proposals, and that he would either persuade or force those that refused them. Yet he said that Titus ought to have such regard to the Jewish law, as to grant them leave to celebrate that day, which was the seventh day of the week, on which it was unlawful not only to remove their arms, but even to treat of peace also; and that even the Romans were not ignorant how the period of the seventh day was among them a cessation from all labors; and that he who should compel them to transgress the law about that day would be equally guilty with those that were compelled to transgress it: and that this delay could be of no disadvantage to him; for why should any body think of doing any thing in the night, unless it was to fly away? which he might prevent by placing his camp round about them; and that they should think it a great point gained, if they might not be obliged to transgress the laws of their country; and that it would be a right thing for him, who designed to grant them peace, without their expectation of such a favor, to preserve the laws of those they saved inviolable. Thus did this man put a trick upon Titus, not so much out of regard to the seventh day as to his own preservation, for he was afraid lest he should be quite deserted if the city should be taken, and had his hopes of life in that night, and in his flight therein. Now this was the work of God, who therefore preserved this John, that he might bring on the destruction of Jerusalem; as also it was his work that Titus was prevailed with by this pretense for a delay, and that he pitched his camp further off the city at Cydessa. This Cydessa was a strong Mediterranean village of the Tyrians, which always hated and made war against the Jews; it had also a great number of inhabitants, and was well fortified, which made it a proper place for such as were enemies to the Jewish nation.

4. Now, in the night time, when John saw that there was no Roman guard about the city, he seized the opportunity directly, and, taking with him not only the armed men that where about him, but a considerable number of those that had little to do, together with their families, he fled to Jerusalem. And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations; for the farther every one of them was come from his own people, the nearer they thought themselves to be to their enemies. They also affrighted themselves with this thought, that those who would carry them into captivity were just at hand, and still turned themselves back at the mere noise they made themselves in this their hasty flight, as if those from whom they fled were just upon them. Many also of them missed their ways, and the earnestness of such as aimed to outgo the rest threw down many of them. And indeed there was a miserable destruction made of the women and children; while some of them took courage to call their husbands and kinsmen back, and to beseech them, with the bitterest lamentations, to stay for them; but John's exhortation, who cried out to them to save themselves, and fly away, prevailed. He said also, that if the Romans should seize upon those whom they left behind, they would be revenged on them for it. So this multitude that run thus away was dispersed abroad, according as each of them was able to run, one faster or slower than another.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s/josephus.htm

[

This is talking about the siege of Gamala, not Jerusalem. He was fleeing TO Jerusalem, not from it, and tricked Titus in such a way that Titus would not be fooled again. IIRC the lull was due to more urgent matters for the Romans in Egypt, not trickery.

Originally posted by Sheepdog-eh?

out of curiosity, are LittleShepherd and OldShepherd related?

No, no relation. And most definitely no relation to that stuart shepherd fellow.

Originally posted by Little Shepherd

As the title says, this is non-debate. I'm just asking a simple question and want the simple answer with no discussion on whether the interpretations presented are in fact accurate or not.

I'm hoping for an answer from DDW or Faramir, but any Preterist who knows the answer is free to answer.

DDW presented something concerning the armies that surrounded Jerusalem prior to its siege and the destruction of the temple. I believe the order of events went like this:
-Armies surrounded Jerusalem
-Armies suddenly left(were called away?)
-Christians, knowing their prophecies, packed up and left
-Their leaving confused the Jews(non-Christian) who believed the Christians(who used to be Jews) would stand with them.
-The Roman armies returned.
-Jerusalem was ransacked and the Temple destroyed.

Now, I remember from the presentation that one of the events(the sudden leaving of the armies) is considered a prophetic sign in Preterist eschatology. The armies leaving was a sign that things were about to get bad, so the Christians should get out of there ASAP.

My question:
What Biblical passage(s) mention this sign(the sudden leaving of the armies surrounding Jerusalem)? I was attempting to tell someone about the Preterist discussion at Twebcon, but when I got to this part I had forgotten to write the verse reference(s) down. It would really help me if I had the verse reference(s). Thank you.

Your question is very difficult to answer because preterists are not unified on their interpretation of Luke 21:20-21 and parallels. Some preterists believe that this is a reference to the Roman armies, but most of the preterist leaders "in the know" argue that this is a reference to the Edomite armies that came before the Romans. And all this assumes, of course, that the armies are themselves the Abomination of Desolation, which is hardly a warrented conclusion. I don't think the armies are the abomination, but the result of the abomination. I discuss this in my book, Then Comes The End: A Biblical View of the End Times, pp. 49-64.

I write (summarizing my discussion):

Before, the mystery of lawlessness had been restrained by the Christians in the city (Rom. 9:29; Rev. 11:8). Then the Apostle James was taken and murdered by the High Priest Ananus in A.D. 62. Other Christians soon followed his fate, butchered by apostate Israel (Rev. 7:3-8; 11:3-13; 14:1-4, 12-20; 15:2-4). This massacre caused the conversion of many Jews (Rev. 11:3-13).29 This slaughter of Christians (God's people) was nothing short of a common pattern in Scripture. In the Garden, the serpent attacks Adam's bride, Eve, and causes them to stumble. This time the role of the serpent is played by the leaders of Israel (John 8:44), who attack the Last Adam's Bride, the Church. Being a faithful bridegroom, the Messiah goes to war with the serpent and crushes it's head (Jerusalem). Massacring these Christians set in motion the final stages of the abomination of desolation, driving God's people from Jerusalem completely (Rev. 14), as the survivors flee (Matt. 24:15-21). The city, empty of all believers, became completely desolate. God's presence was totally removed, opening Jerusalem to attack by its enemies. God would no longer defend the Jews, now a seed of satan masquerading as His people. The blood of the martyrs (Rev. 14) was poured out on the city of Jerusalem (Rev. 16) and drunk by the Harlot of apostate Israel (Rev. 17:3-6).

We then find God's presence leaving the Temple through the detestable actions of the High Priesthood, leaving it desolate. The Jews, released from the hold of the restraining Christians, drove them from the city and it too was left desolate. This resulted, according to Scripture, in an army surrounding Jerusalem. The abomination of desolation, the actions of apostate Israel, brings about the desolation of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was surrounded by pagan armies several times during the period between A.D. 30 and A.D. 70, but the first time (and the time Jesus seems to specifically have in mind) is when the Edomites (Idumeans) attacked the city. The Edomites were Israel's longtime enemies. Over Israel's history, when a pagan army would attack the Jews, the Edomites would use that as an opportunity to rampage and massacre the Jewish people, adding to Israel's pain and misery (2 Chron. 20:2; 28:17; Ps. 137:3; Ezek. 35:5-15; Amos 1:9, 11; Obad. 10-16).

This happened once again during the Great Tribulation. The Edomites marched to Jerusalem in A.D. 68 with an army of twenty thousand at the request of the Jewish radicals, known as the Zealots. Finding the city locked and barred, they surrounded Jerusalem. To the first century Christians, Christ's warning would have no doubt been instantly recognized. The city was surrounded by armies, and it's destruction was about to take place, brought about through Israel's abominable, desolating actions. Jesus's advice to those in the area: flee (Matt. 24:17-18; Luke 21:21-22).

As the Edomites lay in wait outside the city, a great and terrible storm broke out:

There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming. (Josephus)

This marked the final chance for escape from the doomed city of Jerusalem. From this point on, it is the site of utter destruction and death. During the storm, the Jewish Zealots sawed open the city gates closest to the Edomites, to allow them entry. That very next day, the Edomites stormed through that gate and rampaged directed to the Temple, where they murdered 8,500 men, women, and children. There in the Temple they murdered the High Priest Ananius as well. As blood poured out of the temple and down the streets, the Edomites charged through the rest of the city, looting, rampaging, and murdering every person they met.