Originally posted by afdave

Like I've said several times now, I need to understand your claims WRT these mammals and termites more clearly. A small picture on the web just doesn't cut it. I think there are 5 books you have listed now. Is that all?

"I need to understand your claims" Translation: "I am looking for anything to avoid explaining these things."

Oh come now Dave, you said you would explain the burrows. You didn't say you would make a trip to the library, or be a weaselly lawyer-like person who squirms rather than explain. You understand the issue, there is nothing you need except an explanation. Surely you are not so thick as to not understand that air-breathers can't live at the bottom of a flooded earth. Or are you that dense?

Dave, I know you now. YOu aren't going to get any book, and you aren't going to read them if you do, and you will look for loop-holes so you don't have to explain how air-breathing animals can live at the bottom of a global flood, digging holes while avoiding those bouncing boulders.

Dave, either answer the question AS YOU PROMISED TO DO, or this is the last thread I bother to play with you. You are not worth much time. YOu are an insignificant nobody about whom no one thinks anything except how mentally dense you are to not understand this very simple question. A three-year-old has more understanding than you do.

Seriously now, does anyone really believe that dave is actually asking for more and more books, because he wants to read them?



It's glaringly obvious what he's trying to do:

1. Stall the conversation as much as possible, by demanding a huge load of info. If he doesn't get it, he'll pretend we have nothing to give him, and so he can ignore the issue. And even if he does get it, he will then claim that he needs lots and lots of time to examine all that load of work, and "take his leave"- much like he did with the CURVES.
In the meantime, he will frantically search his YEC sources for a pre-cut answer (as I am sure he is doing right now).

2. Find quotemining material. He will skim through the books, specifically looking for sentences like "Termite traces are rare", or "hard to interpret", or something like that. He will then triumphantly quote them in all bolds, proclaiming that they show "Termites are poorly studied", and therefore it is "plausible" that those were not termite trace fossils at all. Just because.

Dave will either do 1) or 2) or both. But he will certainly NOT try to HONESTLY educate himself on the issue.

Any doubts?

Originally posted by Faid

Any doubts?

Not from, what I've seen of Dave this far.

If he was serious, he would have started to get one the books mentioned by Glenn rather than ask, if there were more than the five books mentioned. With five books already mentioned, why didn't Dave just get one of them?


- FreezBee

I dont understand why David is so worried about books. He cannot refute Glenn, no matter how many he reads. He has no experience, no education, and no actual counter-argument. Glenn has education, experience, training, and logic on his side David has no case.

Originally posted by Serafina

I dont understand why David is so worried about books. He cannot refute Glenn, no matter how many he reads. He has no experience, no education, and no actual counter-argument. Glenn has education, experience, training, and logic on his side David has no case.

I do think that you answered your own question.

Oh. David can only say three things. Its not a termite mound. It was moved intact by the flood. Nothing, because he has run away in fear. What else?

Maybe this is where we need one of those real simplistic sketches that dave has been given in the past by the likes of BWE:

Dave, both termites and anteaters are air-breathing creatures (terrestrial insects and mammals, respectively).

The termite nest is dug into the sediment (now sedimentary rock) well ABOVE the levels you have ascribed to the beginning of Teh Fludde, and well BELOW the levels you have ascribed to the ending of Teh Fludde.

To the rest of us, that means that ordinary termites were going about their ordinary nest-building business on an ordinary dirt surface on an ordinary day in the Deep Past.

Then, at some point after the termites have established their nest--on, let's call it Ordinary Deep Time Day One--the anteater comes wandering along--on let's call it Ordinary Deep Time Day One Plus X (where X could be one day, ten days, forty days, or any day in the ordinary life of an ordinary termite colony...)--and digs down into the nest.

Again, for the rest of us, the anteater needs to be having a pretty ordinary day. There's the usual soil surface. It's not tens or thousands of feet under turbulent water loaded with grains and rocks and boulders and hotel-sized rocky objects, grinding everything to paste. It's not under water at all. It hasn't been raining for forty days and nights. Sediment isn't falling out of the water at whatever rate Glenn first told you about, whether you wish to consider the mode of deposition of that sediment still-water-like or turbulent-water-like, or whatever.

So, two ordinary days, separated by at least some additional ordinary time.

And then, in our view, at some considerable time later, but probably long after both the termites and the anteaters have gone on to do other things, this entirely-ordinary surface (in which the termites have dug their nest, and the anteater has burrowed down to raid the nest) is then buried by some (probably fairly run-of-the-mill, but in theory it could be a small-scale "catastrophe" of some kind) local depositional event. Sediment gets washed in, a small landslide or mudslide occurs, the whole area "drops" (relatively-speaking) due to earthquakes or other tectonic forces, and becomes the bottom of a lake or shallow sea, or sand dunes are blown over it...

But, in your world, somehow the airbreathing termites need to dig out a completely ordinary-appearing colony in the midst of a raging world-altering event that has already been going on for some time (because of the depth of sediment below), and is still going on (because of the depth of sediment above, and because your "hypothesis" allows for no convenient dry spells of X days' duration...), all while under thousands of feet of water and infalling sediment and overpressure and etc.

And then the deep-diving anteater has to swim along--having held his breath for days on end--and decide to get hungry...

So, no amount of reading will help you do any more than:

a. Understand the depth of sediment below and the depth of sediment above; and...

b. Help you understand why the scientists ascribe the termite burrow and the anteater burrow to those creatures in the first place.

In neither event, a. or b., or you going to be honestly prepared to quibble with the mainstream scientific findings anytime soon, no matter what you read, unless you happen to stumble upon an AiG-type tract that "deals" with this specific example (or one very much like it).

Clearly you have not yet stumbled upon such a tract, or we would already have heard your "Aha!" ringing out...

And that tract is not the kind of reference you've been asking Glenn for.

Nor will you likely find it anywhere near a major research library.

So your only possible angle of attack on Glenn's example is not going to be found in the library.

Instead, you have to deal with the underlying logic of the situation. Airbreathing insects and mammals, going about their usual business on a normal surface in an ordinary manner.

All at the very same time that your hypothesis places them thousands of feet under water in mid-swirl of the continent-scattering Fludde.

That's the problem here. Not your library-phobia.

Dave, why don't you take a break from your tussle with Glenn & take a white-water raft trip down the Grand Canyon? Take your time.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

Dave, why don't you take a break from your tussle with Glenn & take a white-water raft trip down the Grand Canyon? Take your time.

If he goes on one of those ICR or AiG inspired mis-information raft trips, he won't learn anything.

Originally posted by grmorton

If he goes on one of those ICR or AiG inspired mis-information raft trips, he won't learn anything.

If anyone will pay for the trip, I will set off with teh AiG on there aventure of disckovery. I'll right hom every day.

Has wee Dave reneged on his promise to explain the mammal burrows? If so, he has shown that his yes does not mean yes. It only means yes, if he finds it convenient and easy to accomplish without any work.

Shame on you dave

Originally posted by grmorton

Has wee Dave reneged on his promise to explain the mammal burrows? If so, he has shown that his yes does not mean yes. It only means yes, if he finds it convenient and easy to accomplish without any work.

Shame on you dave

No. As you may recall, you gave me 5 book titles to get from the library. With everything else I have going on, it will probably take me a couple of weeks to find them all (Will 1 library have them all? Will I have to request any by ILL?) and read the relevant sections. Of course, if you want to speed all this up, you could do what I do for people--scan the relevant diagrams/pictures and scan or type in the relevant text which supports/explains your position and objections to the YEC view. But I don't think you're interested in that, so you'll just have to wait.

Originally posted by afdave

No. As you may recall, you gave me 5 book titles to get from the library. With everything else I have going on, it will probably take me a couple of weeks to find them all (Will 1 library have them all? Will I have to request any by ILL?) and read the relevant sections. Of course, if you want to speed all this up, you could do what I do for people--scan the relevant diagrams/pictures and scan or type in the relevant text which supports/explains your position and objections to the YEC view. But I don't think you're interested in that, so you'll just have to wait.

Yep. It's the patented Dave bail out. Dave needs a way to save at least a scrap of face from the huge hole he's dug himself into in this thread (no pun intended). He'll never answer all the tough questions on burrowers (like the one on HYDRODYNAMIC SORTING), but now he'll claim it's YOUR FAULT for giving him so many references to read. We'll hear no more from wee brained Dave on fossilized burrows in this thread. It's CLASSIC Hawkins avoidance - Dave could write a book for YECs on how to run away from scientific discussions.

- T

Originally posted by afdave

No. As you may recall, you gave me 5 book titles to get from the library. With everything else I have going on, it will probably take me a couple of weeks to find them all (Will 1 library have them all? Will I have to request any by ILL?) and read the relevant sections. Of course, if you want to speed all this up, you could do what I do for people--scan the relevant diagrams/pictures and scan or type in the relevant text which supports/explains your position and objections to the YEC view. But I don't think you're interested in that, so you'll just have to wait.

So, if we ask again in two weeks you will be ready with an answer? Is that a promise?

AFDave: To attempt to tackle the termite burrow question, wouldn't you really only need one book?

Also, which library is closest to you that has the largest collection of academic books, out of interest?

David, the mammal burrows and the termite burrows are differernt questions. You dont need books to answer them.

You are running away because you are afraid and you cant answer the question. Everybody knows that. You dont have to be ashamed of your ignorance.

Sari