That's an interesting list inasmuch as half of the items (1, 2, 3, 5, 8) are ends, and half (4, 6, 7, 9, 10) are means.

That's an interesting list inasmuch as half of the items (1, 2, 3, 5, 8) are ends, and half (4, 6, 7, 9, 10) are means.

I wasn't really aware of that. Thanks! That's perhaps a distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's revelation, that the means are provided to bring about the eventual "ends". It's not something which is expected to just suddenly appear. There's a learning process for humanity and a way is provided for people to work together to bring about the new civilization. For example, the Baha'i community on every level is administered by elected groups of nine. The process of how these institutions are elected and how they function is different from anything I've ever heard of before. The election process does not allow volunteering, nominating or promoting of individuals. Instead, the electors prayerfully consider the spiritual qualities of the adult Baha'is living in the area and vote by secret ballot for the nine they consider to be the best qualified spiritually to serve on the Spiritual Assembly which will in years to come be designated Houses of Justice. Those with the most votes are elected to serve on the Assembly. They are directed to make decisions not on the basis of what the people who elected them want, but rather what they feel is the best course of action. They're to follow their own consciences and their understanding of the Baha'i Sacred Writings and not be swayed by public opinion. The goal is for a unanimous decision by all nine members, but if that is not possible, then they are to proceed by majority vote. It then becomes the decision of the Assembly and there is no minority opinion. The purpose is to promote unity and harmony. If a decision is later seen to have been wrong, then it can be corrected by the Assembly and the community moves forward in unity. So this administrative system is the means for implementing and achieving the goals of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Some of the goals, such as the selection of a universal auxilliary language to be taught in all the schools of the world, will come about through the efforts of non-Baha'i world organizations such as the U,.N. or whatever succeeds it. The supreme Baha'i administrative institution is the Universal House of Justice which resides in Haifa, Israel, the Baha'i World Center. This Body is invested by Baha'u'llah with the responsibility to direct the development of the Baha'is of the world. If a question or situation arises not mentioned by Baha'u'llah, then the Universal House of Justice has the authority to decide on the matter. There are no clergy in this whole system.

Another interesting aspect of Baha'u'llah's teachings is that there should be no coersion in faith. Each person must decide for himself if Baha'u'llah is truly the Return of Christ or a Manifestation of God. Baha'u'llah defined heaven as nearness to God, and hell as remoteness from God, and these are not to be used as reward and punishment to coerse people. People are to become Baha'is because they have investigated and found it true, not because they believe that this will somehow benefit them, or that denial will bring about divine wrath. The motive must be pure.

Harlan

OK. I sincerely believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet. That said, his teachings seem less likely to be twisted than, say, radical Islam's approach to the Quran. In general, I prefer teachings about peace to teachings that encourage car bombs.

OK. I sincerely believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet. That said, his teachings seem less likely to be twisted than, say, radical Islam's approach to the Quran. In general, I prefer teachings about peace to teachings that encourage car bombs[]

Jesus warned people to "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." But it is interesting that He didn't say to reject all who claim to be prophets. He provided a clear test. "You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruit." Matt 7:15-20Paul defined the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. (Gal 5:22-24) I'm not sure if your rejection of Baha'u'llah is based upon investigation or not, but Baha'u'llah's teachings overflow with these same fruits of the spirit as described by Paul. By Christ's criteria for ascertaining a true prophet, Baha'u'llah could not be a false prophet because a bad tree (false prophet) cannot bring forth good fruit. Only a true prophet can bear good fruit.

2 Peter 2:1 states: "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon them swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be veiled. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words."

If you have any other references to false prophets from the Bible which I'm not aware of which would indicate that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet, please share them.

Harlan

Baha'u'llah did not deny the Master, has not suffered swift destruction, or shown licentiousness or greed and therefore can't be a false prophet.

Is there an example in the Bible of a prophet other than Jesus returning as promised? YES! The prophet Elijah was taken into heaven bodily according to the Bible, and in Malachi 4-5 it is promised that Elijah would return before the Messiah. John the Baptist was asked if he were Elijah and he denied it (John 1:21), but Jesus was asked about the return of Elijah and He said that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah. How is this apparent contradiction to be understood? Baha'u'llah says that John was the return of the qualities and mission of Elijah, not the person of Elijah. So this is a clear example of a prophet returning in a spiritual sense. Baha'u'llah compares this to the reappearance of roses on a bush. We might say that last year's roses have returned, but what we mean is that the color, shape and smell of the roses are the same as the year before.

People often feel that Christ could not possibly have returned in 1844 because they would have known about it. How could something that important happen without me knowing it! But 2 Peter 3:10 states that Christ's return will be like a thief in the night. A thief in the night can come, take what he wants and leave without waking anyone. It might be some time before it is realized that a thief has been in the house. When Christ appeared 2,000 years ago, how long did it take for the people of the world to become aware of it? Russia did not accept Christianity until 1,000 years after Jesus. It took centuries for the good news to reach most people.

Another interesting clue to the returned Christ is that He will have a new name as mentioned in Isa 62:2 and Rev 2:17. Baha'u'llah is a new name meaning "The Glory of God".

Originally posted by harlan

OK. I sincerely believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet. That said, his teachings seem less likely to be twisted than, say, radical Islam's approach to the Quran. In general, I prefer teachings about peace to teachings that encourage car bombs[]

Jesus warned people to "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." But it is interesting that He didn't say to reject all who claim to be prophets. He provided a clear test. "You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruit." Matt 7:15-20Paul defined the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. (Gal 5:22-24) I'm not sure if your rejection of Baha'u'llah is based upon investigation or not, but Baha'u'llah's teachings overflow with these same fruits of the spirit as described by Paul. By Christ's criteria for ascertaining a true prophet, Baha'u'llah could not be a false prophet because a bad tree (false prophet) cannot bring forth good fruit. Only a true prophet can bear good fruit.

2 Peter 2:1 states: "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon them swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be veiled. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words."

If you have any other references to false prophets from the Bible which I'm not aware of which would indicate that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet, please share them.

Baha'u'llah did not deny the Master, has not suffered swift destruction, or shown licentiousness or greed and therefore can't be a false prophet.

My rejection of Baha'u'llah is not based on whether he's a nice guy. Plenty of atheists are nice guys. Baha'u'llah falls in the "destructive heresies" category. He reduces Jesus to the role of only a good teacher, rather than being God incarnate and the exclusive path to God.

My rejection of Baha'u'llah is not based on whether he's a nice guy. Plenty of atheists are nice guys. Baha'u'llah falls in the "destructive heresies" category. He reduces Jesus to the role of only a good teacher, rather than being God incarnate and the exclusive path to God

Baha'u'llah's teachings are a "destructive heresy" in the same way that Jesus' teachings are a "destructive heresy" from the point of view of orthodox Jews. A heresy is an unorthodox set of beliefs. When a Messiah appears He is always considered heretical by the orthodox of His day.

I don't think you've read what Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith teaches about Christ or you would not have said that Baha'u'llah reduces Jesus to the role of a "good teacher". Here is the authorized statement of the Baha'i Faith concerning Christianity and Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Baha'u'llah as the 'Spirit of God,' is proclaimed as the One Who 'appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,' and is even extolled as the 'Essence of the Spirit.' His mother is described as 'that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance,' and the station of her Son eulogized as a 'station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,' whilst Peter is recognized as on whom God has caused 'the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.'"

From this quote you can gather that Baha'u'llah does not consider Jesus as just a "good teacher."

As to the Christian doctrine of Jesus being "God incarnate," I would rather go to the Christian scripture inself to see how this can be supported:

Jesus said: "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". (John 14:30)

"I and My Father are one." (John 10:30)

"I am He (the Father)". (John 8:24)

"I am in the Father and the Father in Me". (John 14:11)

"And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." (John 12:45)

But Jesus also said: "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him."
(John 1:18)

"I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"I can of Mine own self do nothing.....not My own will, but the will of the Father which has sent Me." (John 5:30)

"I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matt a24:36)
(If Jesus was God, Incarnate, He would know all God knows.)

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" (Mk 15:34) (If Jesus were God incarnate, would he forsake Himself?)

The Church Fathers read these apparently contradictory statements by Christ and created the doctrine of Jesus being God incarnate. This doctrine is the product of their thinking, the thinking of mortals. Other competing doctrines which tried to define the relationship between God and Christ were ruthlessly stamped out as being "heresies" and the orthodox doctrine now is the "God incarnate" doctrine. Is there a better way to visualize the relationship between God and Christ? Baha'u'llah presented a way of seeing it which is worth considering, in my opinion. It goes like this:

God is like the sun (analogy only), and Christ is like a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Rays of the sun (the Holy Spirit) to humanity. If one sees the Sun (God) when one looks into the Mirror (Christ), then you could rightly say that you see God. On the other hand, you could also say that the image of the Sun in the Mirror is not actually the Sun (God), but that the Sun is really 94 million miles away from the Mirror. But all the qualities of the Sun are reflected in the Mirror. The Sun did not come down to earth for that would have destroyed the earth, and the Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror. The Infinite cannot be contained in a finite material body.

This analogy is also used to explain the "Second Coming" of Christ. A new Perfect Mirror appears Who again reflects the Light of God to humanity and proclaims that this is the same Light which appeared before in the Mirror named Jesus. Baha'u'llah claims to be that new Perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God for this new age of fulfillment. He did not ask people to blindly accept what He claims, but to investigate. To be fair in your judgement, you'd have to use the same criteria to ascertain the truth of Baha'u'llah that you use to ascertain the truth of Christ. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time were content to keep things as they were. They would not accept anything which conflicted with their own imaginings of how their Messiah was to appear. Should we expect Christian leaders to be any fairer in their judgment?

Thank you for showing that the doctrines of Bahai are starkly opposed to those of Christianity and thus of Christ. That was my point. Bahai's attempt to affirm Christ's divinity while denying that he was God incarnate amounts only to so much hand-waving. "The Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror"? With God, all things are possible. Open your mind to Christ.

Originally posted by RBerman

Thank you for showing that the doctrines of Bahai are starkly opposed to those of Christianity and thus of Christ. That was my point. Bahai's attempt to affirm Christ's divinity while denying that he was God incarnate amounts only to so much hand-waving. "The Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror"? With God, all things are possible. Open your mind to Christ.

Yes, with God all things are possible.

Thank you for showing that the doctrines of Bahai are starkly opposed to those of Christianity and thus of Christ. That was my point. Bahai's attempt to affirm Christ's divinity while denying that he was God incarnate amounts only to so much hand-waving. "The Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror"? With God, all things are possible. Open your mind to Christ.

In my posts I've quoted directly from Christs words. You quote church doctrine. What I understand you to be saying is that I should open my mind to your way of thinking. I was a Christian before I was a Baha'i, so I was open to Christ long before I ever heard of Baha'u'llah. Obviously Baha'i understanding of Christ and religion in general is vastly differently from yours, but I would not say it is different from the Christianity of the Bible. It is also obvious that Christians have very divergent understandings of Christianity among themselves. That's rather an understatement, and it's based upon different groups following different leaders who gather a following and call it "true Christianity."

Concerning God being able to do anything, that's obviously true. But He has set up an order in the universe and it's our challenge to try to understand that order. It's also our challenge to try to understand the metaphors used in scripture. Taking everything literally leads to a lot of nonsense, and that's what has alienated many Christians and people of other faiths. Saying that God can do anything is not gaining any insight or making any sense out of things.

Originally posted by harlan

Thank you for showing that the doctrines of Bahai are starkly opposed to those of Christianity and thus of Christ. That was my point. Bahai's attempt to affirm Christ's divinity while denying that he was God incarnate amounts only to so much hand-waving. "The Sun could not possibly be contained in the Mirror"? With God, all things are possible. Open your mind to Christ.

In my posts I've quoted directly from Christs words. You quote church doctrine. What I understand you to be saying is that I should open my mind to your way of thinking. I was a Christian before I was a Baha'i, so I was open to Christ long before I ever heard of Baha'u'llah. Obviously Baha'i understanding of Christ and religion in general is vastly differently from yours, but I would not say it is different from the Christianity of the Bible. It is also obvious that Christians have very divergent understandings of Christianity among themselves. That's rather an understatement, and it's based upon different groups following different leaders who gather a following and call it "true Christianity."

All you're saying is that you disagree with Christianity about what the Bible means. The quotations of Christ which you cited do no violence to the doctrine of Christ's incarnation, nor are they the sum total of the Bible's teaching about Christ's divinity.

Originally posted by harlan

Concerning God being able to do anything, that's obviously true. But He has set up an order in the universe and it's our challenge to try to understand that order. It's also our challenge to try to understand the metaphors used in scripture. Taking everything literally leads to a lot of nonsense, and that's what has alienated many Christians and people of other faiths. Saying that God can do anything is not gaining any insight or making any sense out of things.

I was responding to your specific comment that incarnation was simply impossible. I can't imagine on what grounds someone could say such a thing. Shunyadragon recognized the fallacy; why don't you?

was responding to your specific comment that incarnation was simply impossible. I can't imagine on what grounds someone could say such a thing. Shunyadragon recognized the fallacy; why don't you?

A gallon jar cannot contain the ocean. A physical human being cannot contain God, but He can reflect the qualities of God. I'm recognizing that the unimaginable greatness of God cannot even be contained in this physical universe. The painting can never become the painter, though some hints at the nature of the painter might be contained in the painting.

Originally posted by harlan

A physical human being cannot contain God, but He can reflect the qualities of God. I'm recognizing that the unimaginable greatness of God cannot even be contained in this physical universe. The painting can never become the painter, though some hints at the nature of the painter might be contained in the painting.

You seem pretty sure about these things that God can't do. I wonder on what grounds your confidence lies. And the Bible does not teach that Christ "contains God" anyway, or that Christ "became" God. Christ is God incarnate, the Eternal Son.

You seem pretty sure about these things that God can't do. I wonder on what grounds your confidence lies. And the Bible does not teach that Christ "contains God" anyway, or that Christ "became" God. Christ is God incarnate, the Eternal Son.

I'm trying to be clear in what I'm saying, but I guess language is limiting. My statement is not meant to limit what God can do but rather affirm what God isn't. Human nature has always caused us to want a God which is understandable. We've tried statues and images of God down through the ages and I think that believing in "God incarnate" is just an example of that kind of longing to make God fit our own capicity to comprehend. We're still taking baby steps to comprehend the universe. How can we think that we comprehend the Creator of the universe? I have never seen where Christ refers to Himself as "God incarnate". This is a man-made concept. What I'm sure of is that the reality of God is beyond our comprehension, and always will be.

Originally posted by harlan

You seem pretty sure about these things that God can't do. I wonder on what grounds your confidence lies. And the Bible does not teach that Christ "contains God" anyway, or that Christ "became" God. Christ is God incarnate, the Eternal Son.

I'm trying to be clear in what I'm saying, but I guess language is limiting. My statement is not meant to limit what God can do but rather affirm what God isn't. Human nature has always caused us to want a God which is understandable. We've tried statues and images of God down through the ages and I think that believing in "God incarnate" is just an example of that kind of longing to make God fit our own capicity to comprehend. We're still taking baby steps to comprehend the universe. How can we think that we comprehend the Creator of the universe? I have never seen where Christ refers to Himself as "God incarnate". This is a man-made concept. What I'm sure of is that the reality of God is beyond our comprehension, and always will be.

Certainly the totality of God is beyond our comprehension; to fully understand God, we would have to be God fully. Nevertheless, God has condescended to reveal truths about himself to us in Scripture-- not fully, but truly all the same. I exhort you to replace your sun/mirror analogies of human reason (an attempt to understand God, yes?) with God as He reveals Himself in the text which He uniquely inspired for that purpose: The Bible. I guarantee it contains much about God that you will find incomprehensible; I find that to be the case myself. But it also speaks clearly about God on certain issues, and we should not be ashamed to say that we understand, at least partly, those things which God has revealed so that we might understand them. Can you take God at His Word?

Certainly the totality of God is beyond our comprehension; to fully understand God, we would have to be God fully. Nevertheless, God has condescended to reveal truths about himself to us in Scripture-- not fully, but truly all the same. I exhort you to replace your sun/mirror analogies of human reason (an attempt to understand God, yes?) with God as He reveals Himself in the text which He uniquely inspired for that purpose: The Bible. I guarantee it contains much about God that you will find incomprehensible; I find that to be the case myself. But it also speaks clearly about God on certain issues, and we should not be ashamed to say that we understand, at least partly, those things which God has revealed so that we might understand them. Can you take God at His Word?

I don't think you understand. I'm a Baha'i. Why would I throw away the faith I love because someone I don't know tells me to? You seem to assume that I haven't read the Bible. I've already mentioned that I was once a Christian, an active Christian. I read the Bible then and I still read the Bible. In fact I have read the Bible much more since becoming a Baha'i than I ever did as a Baha'i, probably because it makes so much more sense to me as a Baha'i. I have always known people, some in my family, who believe as you do. I just do not agree with basic understandings of God and the Bible which you have. People think differently. It's a fact of life. Christians do not agree on the meanings in the Bible, so why would you expect Baha'is to agree with you? Just restating your beliefs over and over accomplishes nothing. My belief in Baha'u'llah is solid. My belief in Christ rests upon the testimony of Baha'u'llah that Christ truly manifests God. I am looking forward to dying as a Baha'i and ascending to the heavenly worlds, and at my age that's not to far off. Learning of Baha'u'llah was the greatest gift of God to me. I would never tell you what you should believe because Baha'is believe that everyone should investigate truth independently and decide for themselves what the truth is. I do not condemn anyone for believing what they have found to be true, even if it differs from what I believe. This is between each individual and God. History is full of too many people being forced and coerced to believe one religion or another. Too many people blinding follow their ancestors in their beliefs without any thought or investigation. Let me state it one more time: I'm a committed Baha'i because I've investigated it, as well as other religions, and found nothing but truth, wisdom and beauty.