For those who believe that “this generation” in the OD meant Jesus’ generation, here’s something that sort of perplexes me.

Matthew 24:34 “Verily I say unto you, This (houtos) generation (genea) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”


Mark 1:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this (houtos) generation (genea) seek after a sign (semeion)? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign (semeion) be given unto this (houtos) generation (genea).

Now, here’s the problem…

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs (semeion), which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.”

Jesus vowed that his generation would get no sign other the sign of Jonah (the resurrection). Obviously Acts isn’t the only passage that contradicts Mark, because we know throughout the gospels that Jesus did many miracles, signs, and wonders.

Matthew has a different version…

Matthew 12:39 “But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.”

There are various ways of looking at Matthew’s passage above. If Matthew copied Mark, then did Matthew change it for a reason? If Matthew didn’t copy Mark, is this the same dialogue? If so, who is right, Mark or Matthew? Could this be a different time someone asked for a sign than in Mark, thus a different dialogue (Mat is not clear on the destination)? Or are they both right?

Yet in spite of those questions, it still is a contradiction in Matthew, because Jesus performed miracles in spite of the fact that it was an evil adulterous generation.

My theory is this: Jesus used “this generation” in a broader context. He was referring to the generations after his appearance on earth. They would not be granted a sign other than the resurrection. The resurrection is obviously the hallmark miracle of Christianity to all generations, not just Jesus’ generation, and all generations are capable of examining the veracity of it in various ways, particularly from the written documents about it. So what Jesus was basically saying: this generation (any unbelieving generation looking for signs) will only have the luxury of investigating one final sign, the resurrection, which is the defining sign that confirms whether Jesus is Messiah or not, and they can either accept it or reject it.

If this is true, then the “this generation” in the OD doesn’t necessarily have to mean Jesus’ generation only. It can have a broader meaning. It can mean the last generation that is around to see all those things fulfilled in full, including and up to his second coming, and thus could actually be translated: “the generation that is around to see all these things come to pass (including his coming) will then pass away once they are all fulfilled.”

For those who don’t agree with this assessment of “this generation” and consider it twisting or distorting the meaning of the word -- here’s my question:

1) Is Mark 1:12 a contradiction to Jesus performing miracles?

2) Is it perhaps a scribal error either on Mark’s part, or a copy error?

3) Did Jesus perhaps mean the land of Dalmanutha wouldn’t see any signs, instead of the whole generation per se?

#1 and 2, I don’t think is an option for most inerrantist Christians, while #3 is also shaky because the land may have been near Galilee where he did perform many miracles (Matthew 4:23-25). But it still contradicts Matthew, because he identified the generation that would not see any signs as an evil and adulterous one, which includes his generation.

Before going much further, I suggest that you avail yourself of the information presented on this TWeb thread by John Reece.

here.

It's 18 pages. Is there a specific post that would be relevant to the questions of the OP? The only way I could see a linguistic argument as relevant is if the two words used by Matthew and Mark for "generation" were different.

Originally posted by seanD

It's 18 pages. Is there a specific post that would be relevant to the questions of the OP? The only way I could see a linguistic argument as relevant is if the two words used by Matthew and Mark for "generation" were different.

In both Greek and Hebrew context is a vital aspect with regard to understanding. The thread examines the connotations and implications of the terms translated as "generation" throughout the Bible. That information is vital to any discussion of the meaning of the term or any verse which uses the term. Whether that is worth 18 pages or not is up to you.

Originally posted by RonC

In both Greek and Hebrew context is a vital aspect with regard to understanding. The thread examines the connotations and implications of the terms translated as "generation" throughout the Bible. That information is vital to any discussion of the meaning of the term or any verse which uses the term. Whether that is worth 18 pages or not is up to you.

Yes, I understand, which is why I asked if there is any specific post that is relevant to the OP, such as the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 is a different Greek tense than the word "this generation" in Mark 1:12. In other words, perhaps Mat was speaking in the present, and Mark was speaking in the future, thus in Mark the future generations would not see a sign after his resurrection.

That's an example of a relevant point that would solve the contradiction issue raised by the OP (of course I"m assuming you bothered to actually read the OP).

Originally posted by seanD

Yes, I understand, which is why I asked if there is any specific post that is relevant to the OP, such as the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 is a different Greek tense than the word "this generation" in Mark 1:12. In other words, perhaps Mat was speaking in the present, and Mark was speaking in the future, thus in Mark the future generations would not see a sign after his resurrection.

That's an example of a relevant point that would solve the contradiction issue raised by the OP (of course I"m assuming you bothered to actually read the OP).

It is my opinion that Biblical exegesis is not connect the dots... or points... I just made a suggestion.

Originally posted by seanD

Yes, I understand, which is why I asked if there is any specific post that is relevant to the OP, such as the phrase "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 is a different Greek tense than the word "this generation" in Mark 1:12.

Just for clarification: The term rendered "this generation" does not occur in Mark 1:2. Perhaps you mean Mark 8:12. The term rendered "this generation" is not a word; it's a noun + adjective ― with no verb and therefore no tense.

Mark 8:12 (NRSV): And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Matthew 24:34 (NRSV) Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

In both Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34, the verb in the Greek clause in which the term rendered "this generation" occurs is future tense.

In both Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34, the generation to which Jesus was speaking ― and to which he was referring ― was the generation in which he and his contemporaries were living, as is clear when all the contextual indicators in the respective chapters are considered.

It is the context of the respective occurrences that determines to what generation Jesus was referring in each case.

Originally posted by seanD

My theory is this: Jesus used “this generation” in a broader context. He was referring to the generations after his appearance on earth.

Your theory presupposes that the problem related to the sense of Jesus' use of the term σημεῖον ― in contexts other than those of Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34 ― trumps the respective contexts of those two verses in determining the meaning of the generation referenced in those two verses. That's the biggest stretch yet in terms of all the desperate theories that have been proposed to make the meaning of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 mean something other than what it actually says in terms of the context in which it occurs.

Originally posted by John Reece

Just for clarification: The term rendered "this generation" does not occur in Mark 1:2. Perhaps you mean Mark 8:12. The term rendered "this generation" is not a word; it's a noun + adjective ― with no verb and therefore no tense.

Mark 8:12 (NRSV): And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Matthew 24:34 (NRSV) Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

In both Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34, the verb in the Greek clause in which the term rendered "this generation" occurs is future tense.

In both Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34, the generation to which Jesus was speaking ― and to which he was referring ― was the generation in which he and his contemporaries were living, as is clear when all the contextual indicators in the respective chapters are considered.

It is the context of the respective occurrences that determines to what generation Jesus was referring in each case.


Your theory presupposes that the problem related to the sense of Jesus' use of the term σημεῖον ― in contexts other than those of Mark 8:12 and Matthew 24:34 ― trumps the respective contexts of those two verses in determining the meaning of the generation referenced in those two verses. That's the biggest stretch yet in terms of all the desperate theories that have been proposed to make the meaning of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 mean something other than what it actually says in terms of the context in which it occurs.

What would be your solution to the contradiction? Jesus said this generation would see no signs that would verify who he was, yet he performed many "miracles and wonders and signs" (Acts 2:22), and many of these signs convinced the populace who he was.

seanD ,

I think in Matthew Jesus was talking about another generation that would receive a sign. Therefore no sign for you.

Matt 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But earlier He tells us the signs
Matt 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matt 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

But He tells us when all this must happen in respect to the signs.
Matt 9Then shall they...

So the way I read it it says that there will be signs then things will happen. I for one do not think the signs have happened so I see this as future. Many others do not.

When it is viewed this way there is no problems. Of course many people see the verses tell a completely different story. Then the problems start.

Originally posted by franktalk

seanD ,

I think in Matthew Jesus was talking about another generation that would receive a sign. Therefore no sign for you.

Matt 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But earlier He tells us the signs
Matt 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matt 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

But He tells us when all this must happen in respect to the signs.
Matt 9Then shall they...

So the way I read it it says that there will be signs then things will happen. I for one do not think the signs have happened so I see this as future. Many others do not.

When it is viewed this way there is no problems. Of course many people see the verses tell a completely different story. Then the problems start.

I agree with you. I believe that the OD is bi-lateral. Most things were fulfilled, but some things were not fulfilled. When the OD plays out again in the future, everything will be fulfilled from beginning to end. I think Jesus' "this generation" was the only way Jesus could have phrased it, because the OD also helped them -- his generation -- as it will help us in the future. So he couldn't really say it any other way.

But for those who disagree with us, and argue that "this generation" marked Jesus' present generation only, I'm wondering how they resolve the contradiction in Mark.

And John is right, it's actually Mark 8:12.

Originally posted by seanD

But for those who disagree with us, and argue that "this generation" marked Jesus' present generation only, I'm wondering how they resolve the contradiction in Mark.

Excerpts from the comment on Mark 8:12 in Mark 1-8-26 (WBC), by Robert A. Guelich:

Jesus is asked like a prophet for an authenticating sign (8:11) and what follows also takes the form of a prophetic utterance, one of Judgment.

"Why ... seek a sign?" (τί ... ζητεῖ σημεῖον;) begins Jesus' response with a rhetorical question that exposes the disposition of the questioners. Their request comes as incongruous, since they have rejected the "signs" that God has already given them through Jesus' ministry. Why then ask for a sign?

By addressing them as "this generation" (ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη), Jesus uses a designation applied to the "generation" of Noah's day (Gen 7:1) and the stubborn disobedient wilderness wanders in Ps 95:10-11 (cf. Deu 32:5). Here it is a pejorative term referring to those who turned their backs on God, "Sons in whom is no faithfulness" (Deu 32:20). The same designation occurs later in 8:32 and 9:19 with reference to Jesus' contemporary generation characterized as "adulterous, sinful" (8:38) and "unbelieving" (9:19). For Mark, the Pharisees epitomize "this generation" who repeatedly refuse to respond to God's overture in Jesus and have the audacity to request a sign, a request that stems from unbelief (cf. 6:5-6a).

"I assure you" (ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν), a solemn introductory formula of prophetic character, sets the tone of the following pronouncement.

The pronouncement itself comes in the form of an elliptical oath formula. Literally, we have, "If a sign shall be given to this generation ..." (εἰ δοθήσεται τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ σημεῖον). The apodosis is missing. But many have found an underlying Hebraic idiom that renders the conditional literally, "If a sign shall be given to this generation, may I die! or "may I be cursed!" Ps 94:11 LXX; Num 32:11 and Deu 1:35 provide OT parallels for this single NT occurrence of the oath formula. The thrust of such a formula is an emphatic denial of the request. Jesus absolutely refused to grant their request here and in a similar setting in 11:27-35.

Why does Jesus refuse to grant the "sign"? For some the answer lies in the "Messianic secret". But this answer misses the mark. The real issue here is unbelief, not concealment. Unbelief can never be alleviated. On the one hand, to force the evidence upon one would make a faith response by its very nature impossible. On the other hand, the unbeliever despite the evidence will always find grounds for unbelief, especially if believing means abandoning the familiar, the source of security. For those who had eyes of faith Jesus' ministry provided an ample "sign from heaven" of God's confirming work. For those blinded by unbelief no sign could adequately reveal the nature of Jesus' words and works. "This generation shall not be given a sign!"

In the context of Mark 8:11-12 and Matthew 12:39, the term "this generation" has a nuance that is not present in the use of term "this generation" in the contexts of Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30. In both cases ― i.e., Mark 8:12 and Matthew 12:39 on the one hand, and Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30 on the other hand ― the reference is to the generation of Jesus' contemporaries; however, in Mark 8:11-12 and Matthew 12:39 there is an added nuance that alludes to the use of the term in the OT texts cited in the comment above. The semantic range of "this generation" accommodates both the sense of the term in Mark 13:30 and Matthew 24:34, and the nuanced sense of the term in Mark 8:12 and Matthew 12:39.

Originally posted by John Reece

Excerpts from the comment on Mark 8:12 in Mark 1-8-26 (WBC), by Robert A. Guelich:

Jesus is asked like a prophet for an authenticating sign (8:11) and what follows also takes the form of a prophetic utterance, one of Judgment.

"Why ... seek a sign?" (τί ... ζητεῖ σημεῖον;) begins Jesus' response with a rhetorical question that exposes the disposition of the questioners. Their request comes as incongruous, since they have rejected the "signs" that God has already given them through Jesus' ministry. Why then ask for a sign?

By addressing them as "this generation" (ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη), Jesus uses a designation applied to the "generation" of Noah's day (Gen 7:1) and the stubborn disobedient wilderness wanders in Ps 95:10-11 (cf. Deu 32:5). Here it is a pejorative term referring to those who turned their backs on God, "Sons in whom is no faithfulness" (Deu 32:20). The same designation occurs later in 8:32 and 9:19 with reference to Jesus' contemporary generation characterized as "adulterous, sinful" (8:38) and "unbelieving" (9:19). For Mark, the Pharisees epitomize "this generation" who repeatedly refuse to respond to God's overture in Jesus and have the audacity to request a sign, a request that stems from unbelief (cf. 6:5-6a).

"I assure you" (ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν), a solemn introductory formula of prophetic character, sets the tone of the following pronouncement.

The pronouncement itself comes in the form of an elliptical oath formula. Literally, we have, "If a sign shall be given to this generation ..." (εἰ δοθήσεται τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ σημεῖον). The apodosis is missing. But many have found an underlying Hebraic idiom that renders the conditional literally, "If a sign shall be given to this generation, may I die! or "may I be cursed!" Ps 94:11 LXX; Num 32:11 and Deu 1:35 provide OT parallels for this single NT occurrence of the oath formula. The thrust of such a formula is an emphatic denial of the request. Jesus absolutely refused to grant their request here and in a similar setting in 11:27-35.

Why does Jesus refuse to grant the "sign"? For some the answer lies in the "Messianic secret". But this answer misses the mark. The real issue here is unbelief, not concealment. Unbelief can never be alleviated. On the one hand, to force the evidence upon one would make a faith response by its very nature impossible. On the other hand, the unbeliever despite the evidence will always find grounds for unbelief, especially if believing means abandoning the familiar, the source of security. For those who had eyes of faith Jesus' ministry provided an ample "sign from heaven" of God's confirming work. For those blinded by unbelief no sign could adequately reveal the nature of Jesus' words and works. "This generation shall not be given a sign!"

In the context of Mark 8:11-12 and Matthew 12:39, the term "this generation" has a nuance that is not present in the use of term "this generation" in the contexts of Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30. In both cases ― i.e., Mark 8:12 and Matthew 12:39 on the one hand, and Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30 on the other hand ― the reference is to the generation of Jesus' contemporaries; however, in Mark 8:11-12 and Matthew 12:39 there is an added nuance that alludes to the use of the term in the OT texts cited in the comment above. The semantic range of "this generation" accommodates both the sense of the term in Mark 13:30 and Matthew 24:34, and the nuanced sense of the term in Mark 8:12 and Matthew 12:39.

Originally posted by seanD

I agree with you. I believe that the OD is bi-lateral. Most things were fulfilled, but some things were not fulfilled. When the OD plays out again in the future, everything will be fulfilled from beginning to end. I think Jesus' "this generation" was the only way Jesus could have phrased it, because the OD also helped them -- his generation -- as it will help us in the future. So he couldn't really say it any other way.

But for those who disagree with us, and argue that "this generation" marked Jesus' present generation only, I'm wondering how they resolve the contradiction in Mark.

And John is right, it's actually Mark 8:12.

Two separate discussions took place. One documented by Luke and one by Matthew. In Luke Christ was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem so that generation was the one in front of Him. But in Luke it says "But before all these" so He was speaking before the signs. So this generation refers to the people He was speaking too. Once one separates out the two talks of Christ it all falls into place with no arm waving.

The word "ginomai" is where the difficulty is in understanding Matthew 24:34
Countless hours, days, months, years or more have been spent on "generation," but the issue is:

"ALL THESE THINGS COME TO BE"

Strong's Number: 1096
Transliterated: ginomai
Phonetic: ghin'-om-ahee
Text: a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.): --arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things come to be, that is, they are set in motion."

There is no sense of finality, or completion, as with "come to pass" or "be fulfilled."

Originally posted by TyRockwell

Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things come to be, that is, they are set in motion."

There is no sense of finality, or completion, as with "come to pass" or "be fulfilled."

Ty, you should not make assertions about the meaning of a Greek word on the basis of nothing more than a copy + paste of the semantic range of the word in Strong's apart from specific context, plus an added (not stated in Strong's) nuance originated in your own imagination.

There are two verbs in Matthew 24:34 that are rendered ― by the eminent grammarian of the Greek NT Max Zerwick ― thus: [this generation will not] disappear (παρέλθῃ, parelthȩ̄) until (ἕως ἂν, heōs an) ... will have taken place (γένηται, genētai).

The latter verb (γένηται, genētai) is aorist of γίνομαι (ginomai). If Jesus/Matthew had meant to indicate the beginning of a continuing process (as you have asserted), the verb would be imperfect rather than aorist.

Originally posted by John Reece

Ty, you should not make assertions about the meaning of a Greek word on the basis of nothing more than a copy + paste of the semantic range of the word in Strong's apart from specific context, plus an added (not stated in Strong's) nuance originated in your own imagination.

There are two verbs in Matthew 24:34 that are rendered ― by the eminent grammarian of the Greek NT Max Zerwick ― thus: [this generation will not] disappear (παρέλθῃ, parelthȩ̄) until (ἕως ἂν, heōs an) ... will have taken place (γένηται, genētai).

The latter verb (γένηται, genētai) is aorist of γίνομαι (ginomai). If Jesus/Matthew had meant to indicate the beginning of a continuing process (as you have asserted), the verb would be imperfect rather than aorist.

I might put it another way. "This generation will not disappear until all these things are set in place, as in a "set up." I noticed that "be assembled" was listed in the usages. The NIV and the Complete Jewish Bible each renders the phrase, "until these things happen."

I'm just sayin,' not tryin' to pick a fight with ya.