Young Christian, old Christian, church goer into the Christian Religion who has a bit of Theology, or maybe a lot, have you yet been immersed with the Holy Spirit or are you just immersed in knowledge ?

Originally posted by headheart

Young Christian, old Christian, church goer into the Christian Religion who has a bit of Theology, or maybe a lot, have you yet been immersed with the Holy Spirit or are you just immersed in knowledge ?

Hi HH... your post reminded me of these stunning words of Thomas a Kempis:

What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone.

This is the greatest wisdom -- to seek the kingdom of heaven...
(Thomas a Kempis The Imitation of Christ)

Originally posted by RonC

Hi HH... your post reminded me of these stunning words of Thomas a Kempis:

I particularly enjoyed reading about Andrew Murray, who I believe was a pastor for 20 years before he came ever so gradually into the precious anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
HH.

Originally posted by headheart

Young Christian, old Christian, church goer into the Christian Religion who has a bit of Theology, or maybe a lot, have you yet been immersed with the Holy Spirit or are you just immersed in knowledge ?

Everything changed for me when I was immersed in the Holy Spirit.

I pray that more here on T-web will come into this enduement that surpasses knowledge without this blessing.

You become immersed in the Holy Spirit by doing the will of God. First, that means believing the gospel, which results in the Holy Spirit coming to you. Then you grow stronger in the Spirit when you serve God faithfully. If you do not serve faithfully, you are quenching the Spirit. But both believing the gospel and serving God faithfully involve immersion in the Word of God, which is essentially knowledge.

How to become sanctified:

1. Obedience

1 John 1

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

1 John 4

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

1 John 5

3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

2. Accurate DOCTRINE, resulting in humility

1 John 1

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

3. Evangelism, or spreading of the Word

John 15

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

So sanctification involves immersion in the Word of God. Each part of this involves knowledge. That is, we obey written commands ("the truth"), and we acknowledge our own faults ("his word"), and we tell others about God ("bear[] fruit").

But I'm not sure what these mystical encounters you describe have to do with sanctification as found in the Bible.

Yes, I like John the Apostle, who along with thousands of others were baptized in the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, and was changed from a weak believer into powerfully endowed, so much so that he/they wrote the NT.

Originally posted by Obsidian

But I'm not sure what these mystical encounters you describe have to do with sanctification as found in the Bible.

It seems that you are blessed with a clear understanding of a path for yourself. That is wonderful. None of us is gifted with total comprehension of divine mind, none are blessed with seeing all the paths God makes available to us, so not being sure of other paths is true for all of us... though we can learn from those who understand other paths.

For me our purpose in Christ can be boiled down to: Knowing and doing the Will of God.

The indwelt HS helps us by giving us an inkling of maturing discernment into what the will of God is by affecting our conscience as to what is right and wrong (IOW what is, and is not, the will of God). However, you cannot hope to hone your discretionary skills without a maturing knowledge of His Word.

Without the objective truth of the Word our interactions with the HS become nothing more than subjective experiences and we would be hard pressed to tell the HS from our own deceived mind or indeed from dark spiritual forces acting upon us.

So in answer to the initial question; one becomes immersed in the Spirit by becoming immersed in the Word, and one becomes immersed in the Word by becoming immersed in the Spirit.

In a sense one could never say that he is increasing in knowledge because the more one knows, the more one realizes that he doesn't know. So relative to our limited perception, the target of perfect knowledge moves further away. I think this realization is a key to humility and the key to avoiding the tendency of the flesh to declare ones doctrine to be absolutely true whilst remaining ignorant to the vast majority of undiscovered truth.

Originally posted by headheart

Young Christian, old Christian, church goer into the Christian Religion who has a bit of Theology, or maybe a lot, have you yet been immersed with the Holy Spirit or are you just immersed in knowledge ?

The Holy Spirit witnesses to the Divinity of Father and Son. We know, then, that the Bible is the Word of God. With the Bible we learn what Jesus taught us - and we can feast on every word. It is the Holy Spirit that opens our eyes to the kingdom of God - this is how we learn something new every time we study scripture. As we journey following the example of our beloved Savior, we continually change from the inside out - evolving if we are in-tune with the Holy Spirit. The passages we read yesterday mean something different to us today because we have evolved from yesterday. Indeed, as one poster remarked, the more we learn, the more we realize we need to learn.

I have found that by keeping God's commandments through good times and bad, that I learn more. Through studying the scriptures I learn, as well. However, it is through personal prayer that I find everything comes together more completely. I don't mean the little prayers we think and say in our heads through-out the day, although they are totally necessary; I'm talking about meaningful one-on-one time dedicated prayer in a private place where I communicate with Heavenly Father. This is like sitting at the feet of Heavenly Father where I can speak, AND I can listen. It is when I ask for the direction of the Holy Spirit to guide me in everything that I do. So it is not only when I am studying scripture, or when I am trying to make the right choices that I have the Holy Spirit. It is through prayer that my mind and my spirit become focused on God; it is when my spirit becomes in-tune with the Holy Spirit. And that is when I can recharge the ability to become aware of His constant companionship; when my body can then live in this physical world, but my spirit is not affected by it to the degree it otherwise would have been.

Immersion with the Holy Spirit softens my heart. I become more humble and teachable. Love becomes pure.

As to book knowledge, I think this can be a stumbling block if we are not first immersed with the Holy Spirit. I recognize the Holy Spirit in others! I see many Christians who are very learned who do not seem to understand the immensity of the gift of the Holy Spirit. They almost seem to be afraid of allowing the Holy Spirit into their hearts and minds. This weighs heavily on my heart. There is much humbling and joy and peace and comfort and hope and depth of spiritual understanding and faith-building experiences to be had through the Holy Spirit. Oh, that everyone could know this! Truly, no man can express this or understand this without the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who lifts our spirit; who allows us to glimpse the kingdom of God, and to be thrilled in a way that only the Holy Spirit can thrill us!

God bless,

jo

Originally posted by headheart

Young Christian, old Christian, church goer into the Christian Religion who has a bit of Theology, or maybe a lot, have you yet been immersed with the Holy Spirit or are you just immersed in knowledge ?

Your post immediately brought to my mind this passage :

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Colossians 2:2-15

A couple of things stand out to me:

1. There is no attempt to gainsay the importance of knowledge - only a warning over the source of it. There is certainly all the difference in the world in seeking knowledge from mere intellectual inquiry into the world and seeking that knowledge from Jesus Christ in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge dwell. So it seems to me that to separate the Holy Spirit and knowledge is to call into question the source of the knowledge. I do understand what you are getting at - and your point is critical. We can all too easily walk in the flesh, lean on the carnal inclinations of the mind of man - and even enter into things that are too high for the intellect. Knowledge puffs up - it is very true. And there are things that (we are told) can be intruded upon by the carnal mind in an unworthy manner - simply because it is carnal. But for those in Christ, those riches are available without limit - to be distributed by Jesus Christ as He sees fit.

2. The tendency to separate the Spirit of God from Jesus Christ can be dangerous. One might expect Paul to address the Spirit of God and its importance here to the Colossians (who were dealing with Gnosticism) since he has already dealt directly with knowledge and wisdom. The understanding is not peculiar to the Holy Spirit. Rather, the Holy Spirit takes the things of Christ and makes them real to us (John 16:13-14). That is not to say there is not a ministry of the Holy Spirit that is distinct from that of Christ, but rather that the separation seems forced. The Spirit does not glorify Himself but rather points to the Father. It is almost, it seems, a hidden ministry. We must, indeed, receive the Holy Spirit, but the operation of the Spirit is something that is not in the same manner of the flesh - it is hidden and not judgeable or apprehendable by the natural senses (John 3:8). That Paul didn't even mention the Spirit of God in this passage is, to me, important. Jesus, after all, is wisdom (Proverbs) personified. It is He that is emphasized in this passage that centers on knowledge - not the Holy Spirit.

EDIT : Lest my point is not clear, it is that the Holy Spirit is certainly very important in understanding the things of God. It is an understanding that the natural man does not - indeed, can not - have. However, the placing of a distinction between knowledge generally and the Holy Spirit and "spiritual understanding" is to divide Christ. For the Holy Spirit came to bring the things of Christ to us. And the manner in which the Spirit moves is not one which the mind or eyes of man can apprehend. So while the Holy Spirit has a certain sense of separate ministry (John 16:8), the tendency to isolate that from knowledge generally is to separate the ministry of the Holy Spirit in making known to us the things of Christ. Which calls into question what the "spiritual knowledge" is that tends to come from the popular trend of elevating the Holy Spirit and looking down (in some sense) on knowledge.

1 Corinthians 2:10-15

The Spirit, not content to flit around on the surface, dives into the depths of God, and brings out what God planned all along. Who ever knows what you're thinking and planning except you yourself? The same with God—except that he not only knows what he's thinking, but he lets us in on it. God offers a full report on the gifts of life and salvation that he is giving us. We don't have to rely on the world's guesses and opinions. We didn't learn this by reading books or going to school; we learned it from God, who taught us person-to-person through Jesus, and we're passing it on to you in the same firsthand, personal way.

The unspiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by unspiritual critics. Isaiah's question, "Is there anyone around who knows God's Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?" has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ's Spirit.

Note:

The baptism with the Holy Spirit opens up the totality of our being in ways that allow us to access a wisdom that cannot be experienced, even by the most scholastic of minds.
This deeping of experience is shunned by those who bleat on and on about Mysticism and Gnosticism, but all they are doing it putting up a wall against the actual deepening of their spiritual life.
Andrew Murray was one such individual, but once he humbled his heart and called upon the Lord to baptise him with the Holy Spirit, there was a gradual move from a light rain of the presense, (to think that he had ministered for 20 years on less) to a deeper and deeper experience in the freshness and anointing of the living waters, the wonderful blessing of the Holy Spirit.

God is spirit, and secondly, the Spirit of God, glorifies God and Christ.

Read the whole of 1 Corinthians 2 and also consider Apollos in the Acts of the Apostles.

Blessings over Christmas in Christ, who is our all sufficiency.

HH.

Originally posted by jo7241974

As to book knowledge, I think this can be a stumbling block if we are not first immersed with the Holy Spirit. I recognize the Holy Spirit in others! I see many Christians who are very learned who do not seem to understand the immensity of the gift of the Holy Spirit. They almost seem to be afraid of allowing the Holy Spirit into their hearts and minds. This weighs heavily on my heart. There is much humbling and joy and peace and comfort and hope and depth of spiritual understanding and faith-building experiences to be had through the Holy Spirit. Oh, that everyone could know this! Truly, no man can express this or understand this without the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who lifts our spirit; who allows us to glimpse the kingdom of God, and to be thrilled in a way that only the Holy Spirit can thrill us!

God bless,

jo

Hi Jo.
This brings back so many incidents, over the years, where I have found myself talking to those who have much learning, some even academic scholars, but as they unwound their knowledge, it became glaringly obvious that they were 'dry as a bone'.
One particular event took place, after my own baptism with the Holy Spirit in early 1976. I returned from a retreat one afternoon and got to chatting to a fellow sailor who was playing his guitar. He played well and sang well, but there was such sadness in his eyes. We started talking about Jesus and he explained that he read the Psalms every morning and attended the Dutch Reformed Church. I popped the question. Have you ever been baptised with the Holy Spirit. He looked puzzled and wanted to know more. I explained and he agreed to come along to a meeting. His life was 'dynamically changed'. He eventually left the service (Navy) and joined a cruiser ship called the Logos, going from country to country sharing the Lord Jesus.
The other examples are all in one. There have been so many remarkable ministries which started out in the academic world, ie. Bible College, Seminary, full time pastors, preachers, deacons etc....and then felt a calling to the Missions, only to return vanquished, dry as a bone, and some even spiritually bankrupt. It was during this time of dryness, that they began to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit and their lives were dynamically empowered. There are just too many names to mention.

HH.

The Spirit does the works and teaches sound doctrine in all parts of scripture. As babes in Christ the comforter will keep you close to Jesus Yeshua's teachings. It is a gift of the Spirit. Knowledge of Scripture is a gift of the Spirit and Maturity which grows to maturity over years of study, like the Berean's. Saul of Tarsus had head knowledge, but after he repented and had hands laid on him he received The Spirit of Grace. It is ok to ask GOD to help you in all study, learning, teaching and sharing sound doctrine. Look up Gift's of The Spirit and Fruits of the Spirit. I have a feeble memory so I have to cheat and use a Strong's Concordance to help me find related term's concepts and word searches. People have differing Gifts placed within the Body of Christ for Salvation as it pleases GOD to do so. By ourselves we are pretty limited. But as a herd of Sheep we can take over the world! LOL Assuming our Shepherd, i.e., Jesus does not leave us alone. Like a child, bring them up in the way they should go, teach them the basics of scripture, prayer, repentance, service, fellowship, testimonials and as they grow and mature in their years of service they become mature, a full crop of wheat from Genesis to Revelation, each book being a separate crop in a separate field. As a youth the wheat is only one grain, as the years progress it sprouts and bare's fruits, then each grain becomes a full field of wheat for each book of the 66 books. A mature christian understands the concepts, books, etc. and has the Spirit to Guide, Comfort and Shepherd him from cradle to grave. Evan so Lord Jesus come... The Spirit helps testify of Jesus as the only begotten of a woman son of GOD who has always been with GOD from eternity to eternity. A comforter is more than just a nice quilted covering but only one can keep you warm and not burn you in the end. We only need a drop of a Holy Spirit to keep us out of the fire for eternity.

Originally posted by awretchlikeme

We only need a drop of a Holy Spirit to keep us out of the fire for eternity.

A Giant Rain Drop.jpg


I guess it would really depends on the size of the drop.

Originally posted by awretchlikeme

We only need a drop of a Holy Spirit to keep us out of the fire for eternity.

Yes, a drop of the Holy Spirit gives us redemption from the fires of hell. But that first drop is just the start of a journey, following the Lord. But there additional drops, even a well of water springing up, and more than that, Rivers of Living Water. Those additional waters of the Spirit bring us closer, in our following of the Lord, to Him.

One can follow the Lord, and study His Word for years, and pray continuously, and still not grow closer to Him. It remains a case of more our work, and not enough of His work in us. Reading, studying and praying are absolutely necessary to maintain our walk, but it can be knowing much about him, and not enough of knowing Him.

Jesus said, "If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will my Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those that ask?"

People repent, ask God to forgive them of their sins, and are quickened in their spirits with an indwelling measure of the Holy Spirit. But so often, Christians do not ask for more of the Holy Spirit. They do not ask to be filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit, which is a greater measure than the indwelling measure of the Spirit.

With the greater measure of His Spirit we can become more than followers of Jesus, we can be "taught of the Lord" in a diminsion that surpasses all the hard work we can do in our reading and studying and praying without that greater diminsion of His Spirit's work in us.

What a beautiful thread this is! My heart is full! We are so blessed! The timing is perfect as we soon celebrate the birth of our Beloved Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ. Pray always for the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit. Father will hear our prayers and will communicate through the Holy Spirit.

May God bless us, every one!

jo