Most Metaphysical Naturalists and some Religionists believe that when you die, that is it.

Don't want to go by the devil.
Don't want to go by demon.
Don't want to go by Satan,
Don't want to die uneasy.
Just let me go naturally.
(Earth, Wind and Fire - And When I Die)

But can we dismiss the haunting sense that after we die, there might be much more, than we could have ever imagined in this life ?

In my time of dying, want nobody to mourn
All I want for you to do is take my body home
(Led Zepplin - In My Time Of Dying)

As I lay in my hospital bed thinking that I might die, the man in the bed next to me asked me whether I believed in living after I die and then went on to tell me why he did not believe in it.
He had been a religionist, and even taught Sunday School, but after watching a few television programmes about this, he had concluded that he no longer believed in the teachings of Christianity.
He explained to me that when one dies, it is like going to sleep.

It was that time of evening and feeling the weight of his words, I added,
"If dying is like going to sleep, I suppose dreaming would be like eternal life."

I heard him tossing and turning in his sleep, and slightly before breakfast the next morning he began pursuing me more intensly about this matter.
It became clear to me as he talked, that he had not really much depth to his so-called Christian beliefs and had been easily swayed from them by his equally shallow diet of popular anti-Christian propoganda.

It reminded me of the Father Ted series where he is asked,"Do you believe in an afterlife?" to which he replied, "Now, Dougal..priests tend to have a very strong belief in the afterlife" To which he replied, "Oh, I wish I had your faith Ted." To which Ted replies with a sign, "Dougal, what did you do to get into the Church...? Was it like - Collect 12 Crisp packets and become a priest ?"

Just incase ye all missed the question:

....can we dismiss the haunting sense that after we die, there might be much more, than we could have ever imagined in this life ?

So I am to conclude that all believers and unbelievers alike, on old Theology Web Campus, agree that there is a resurrection of the dead and life after death / afterlife / the next world , as well as an eternal judgment.



HH.

Originally posted by headheart

Just incase ye all missed the question:

....can we dismiss the haunting sense that after we die, there might be much more, than we could have ever imagined in this life ?

The haunting sense is the fear that leads to the foolishness of Pascal's Wager, or other spineless reason to believe.

The reality is we do not know squat about what happens after death, and to accept this releases us from the motive to believe, because of the fear of the unknown, and than possibly one can go on to a real foundation from which to believe.

I save my haunting sense for things more worth while and real than the foolishness of Halloween.

Not all are haunted by the prospect of an afterlife. A better question would be; For what reason should we expect any sort of afterlife, other than wishful thinking.

The Bible teaches that individual self awareness will dissolve into oblivion at death.

Originally posted by headheart

....can we dismiss the haunting sense that after we die, there might be much more, than we could have ever imagined in this life ?

I can, yes.

Others will have to speak for themselves.

shunyadragon, showmeproof, postroad and Doug Shaver.

Firstly, thanks for responding to my question.

Secondly, the fact of the historical Jesus and the eye-witness accounts of men and women who saw Jesus alive after his death and ascending up into the skies, to return one day in the future in much the same way are not things that can be swept away by wishful thinking.

Thirdly, there are numerous NDE and accounts of those who have been over to the otherside and returned with stories of a life after this one.

Sincerely,
HH

Originally posted by headheart

shunyadragon, showmeproof, postroad and Doug Shaver.

Firstly, thanks for responding to my question.

Secondly, the fact of the historical Jesus and the eye-witness accounts of men and women who saw Jesus alive after his death and ascending up into the skies, to return one day in the future in much the same way are not things that can be swept away by wishful thinking.

I do not think this works for others that do not believe as you do. The likely fact of the historical Jesus, among the numerous Jewish rebels claiming to be messiah there were likely some that had a name similar to what we call Jesus, does not necessarily conclude that the Biblical miracle working Resurrected Jesus is factual. No, we have no eye witness accounts in first person for the Biblical Jesus. WE especially lack any outside the Bible like Philo that recorded the events and visited Jeruselum at that time. We have later compiled documents that people believe in. This not much different than the records of other historical accepted figures that have included in their biographies supernatural and miraculous occurences which are not accepted as historical fact.

Thirdly, there are numerous NDE and accounts of those who have been over to the otherside and returned with stories of a life after this one.

Sincerely,
HH

The record of NDE's is inconclusive.

Originally posted by shunyadragon

I do not think this works for others that do not believe as you do.

I have met many who do not believe as I do, but who are convinced of the reliability of the New Testament documents.

Though I am definitely not going to winge out of replying to you, I do not want to waste your time going over arguments that might have been covered by others on Theology Web Campus and instead refer you to professional apologetes who I believe will grant you the best in current scholarship. Dr Jack Gibson (Mathetes) at apologetics.com is a professional apologete, along with Lindsay Brooks (Love Supreme) and I think you will discover (as others have) that the view that you hold will be met with some very mature and insightful responses. If you behave yourself.
(Here is a sample : Why I believe the New Testament is Historically Reliable ? Gary Habermas < apologetic.com and The Dating of the New Testament Norman Geisler < bethinking.org )

Obviously if you do not accept the authority of the New Testament, then there is simply no point in covering the facts presented by the Apostle Paul, as well as those in Luke (in particular the introduction). This would also apply to St. John's writings, namely the gospel account, and the introduction to 1 John.
As to secular historians, I have read the various arguments for and against, but still find that there is definitely a mention of this Jesus and though it might not carry as much weight as the New Testament, it is certainly worthy of consideration.

The record of NDE's is inconclusive.

Actually, it is subjective experience but nevertheless worthy of examination. If one rejects such events without actually exploring them, then it is of little or no value. There are those who have made it their life's study to explore the paranormal and are stunned by what they have discovered.

Sincerely.
HH.

btw. Shunyadragon, if you decide to take up the challenge and join apologetics.com, will you please let me know what handle you choose to use, so that I can follow your discussions.

Blessings,
HH.

Finally.
Shunyadragon.
In my first reply, I bracketed (Here is a sample: ) with some links to articles that relate to your reply, but did not provide a sample of the sort of discussions being conducted on apologetics.com. So here is a sample of a recent discussion between Dr. Gibson and another really interesting thinker, 'Rethinker'. I thought the title was particularly interesting, 'If the bible is inerrant, how bout the BofM?' -- You should find it under the 'Religion and other beliefs' section of the discussion board.

nb. HELLBOY was the first person to comment.

Peace,
HH

Originally posted by headheart

shunyadragon, showmeproof, postroad and Doug Shaver.

Firstly, thanks for responding to my question.

Secondly, the fact of the historical Jesus and the eye-witness accounts of men and women who saw Jesus alive after his death and ascending up into the skies, to return one day in the future in much the same way are not things that can be swept away by wishful thinking.

Thirdly, there are numerous NDE and accounts of those who have been over to the otherside and returned with stories of a life after this one.

Sincerely,
HH

The eye-witness accounts are attested to his followers. One, Paul, goes into a lengthy epistle to the Corinthians about the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15. He says that Christ appeared to him last of all. He goes on to say that Christ is the first fruit of the resurrection to come. The Corinthians having trouble believing this are rebuked by Paul as he goes through what the resurrection is. In this account Paul says we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. The word he uses for spiritual is πνευματικον transliterated as pneumatikon from the root pneuma. He goes further into detail about how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven for how can corruption enter into incorruption. Put any theological twist on it you like, but to Paul, or at least in his epistle to the Corinthians, the resurrection (which Christ was the first fruits), was not a bodily resurrection and nor should we expect one.

If I say I saw someone fly without the aide of technology, and there were 500 witnesses there as well, does this mean that you would get the same witness from the 500 people whom were present? Besides which the ascension is wonderful example of the Jews literally believing as heaven being in a place above the firmament of the earth...needless to say we can peer out to galaxies 13 billion light years away.

There are many people whom have UFO and indeed even alien encounters...am I wrong to dismiss them, afterall they seem thoroughly convinced.

I do not think there is any reason what so ever to conclude that there is some sort of life after death other than mere wishful thinking. I have no reason not to conclude that when I die it will be much like all those billions of years before I was born. Nothing.

I will re-evaluate this position, should new evidence come to light. I don't think the christ fables and myths go any way towards proving this happens.

Originally posted by showmeproof

The eye-witness accounts are attested to his followers.

Yes.

One, Paul, goes into a lengthy epistle to the Corinthians about the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15.

Yes, I was thinking of this passage too.

He says that Christ appeared to him last of all.

Yes.

He goes on to say that Christ is the first fruit of the resurrection to come.

Yes.

In this account Paul says we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. The word he uses for spiritual is πνευματικον transliterated as pneumatikon from the root pneuma. He goes further into detail about how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven for how can corruption enter into incorruption.

Mmmm...

Put any theological twist on it you like, but to Paul, or at least in his epistle to the Corinthians, the resurrection (which Christ was the first fruits), was not a bodily resurrection and nor should we expect one.

I agree.
Jesus' body was not the same as Lazarus whom he raised.

If I say I saw someone fly without the aide of technology, and there were 500 witnesses there as well, does this mean that you would get the same witness from the 500 people whom were present?

I guess one might ask 100 000 people at a Michael Jackson Concert if they saw him on the stage, and they would all shout yes. A few loonies might say they saw Jesus, but the bulk of the eye-witness who had seen him peform before and bought his albums would be sure of that. More than 500 at one time, 2000+ years ago, certainly amounted to a reasonably large crowd. Considering Paul mentions that most of them were still alive. Hence, he got to talk to them. That must have been thrilling. Excuse my exhuberance.

Besides which the ascension is wonderful example of the Jews literally believing as heaven being in a place above the firmament of the earth...needless to say we can peer out to galaxies 13 billion light years away.

Yes. I have always imagined it as being somewhere out there. Paul speaks of a man who ascended into the third heaven. Paul has really given us so much that is intriguing.

There are many people whom have UFO and indeed even alien encounters...am I wrong to dismiss them, afterall they seem thoroughly convinced.

I know I cannot dismiss them.
I have a friend who has been researching this, nearly his entire life. He was a skeptic Mufon investigator, who has seen and experienced too much to simply shut the book on the paranormal. I am also in emails with a serious Atheist Paranormal expert and this guy blows me away with the details. It is actually quite frightening.
He talks about wierd stuff, 'materializations'...I try to keep and open mind, and not be skeptical. But I am not easily convinced and suffer incredible doubts.
My own personal faith in Jesus has been one that started off swell, but then went through intense doubts, until I decided to stop playing and see if Jesus was really there.
If the accounts were true, then why not give it my best shot.
I spent 8 months seeking and was greatly rewarded. Now I maintain a fairly consistent communion with Him and am often suprised by how He communicates with me.
If he is supposed to have not existed, He is either a figment of my imagination or He is real, I guess I shall have to hang on until I die, to find out if my crazy faith was worth it all.
Forgive me Lord, my unbelief.

HH.

Originally posted by EvoUK

I do not think there is any reason what so ever to conclude that there is some sort of life after death other than mere wishful thinking. I have no reason not to conclude that when I die it will be much like all those billions of years before I was born. Nothing.

I will re-evaluate this position, should new evidence come to light. I don't think the christ fables and myths go any way towards proving this happens.

I would keep an open mind, seeing as many who held a position similar to that of yours, and with considerable dexterity, found themselves discovering that the fables and myths were, some-early ..........ripples, and these accounts of Jesus were the substance of Plato's shadows.
It is a hard call for anyone, for Christ himself is called 'the express image of God'. It was hard for those who apparently saw him and touched him to accept who he was.
I have found much joy in the lecture given by Professor Nicoli, about Freud and Lewis.
'Wishfulfilment or Wishful Thinking?' < here I found it really worth the hour of streaming.

Sincerely,
HH.